Next thing I can't wait to see

[Ozymandias]

45-70 Gov is perfect brown bear medicine, very well proven for that task time and again. It remains to this day the go to for most guides in bear country, so that is an inaccurate statement. It is also a great one shot stopper for troublesome feral swine. But, there are a plethora of cartridges that have equal value in this application. But hunting in the thick brush/swamps of Florida provides its own set of unique challenges and cartridge selection is vital in this.

Reliability: I've employed AKs that were badly damaged from explosions and they "worked"! I've had ARs fail me while at NRA matches. I have my favorites just like anyone else but accuracy will hands down go to the AR. The Russians are still employing the 7.62x39mm in many SOF like units, definitely not on a wide scale ... but not abandoned by any stretch.

1) your relying on a niche use case to say the .45-70 is still well-used. It isnt. No military uses it, and 90% of shooters (conservative guess) have never used it, not even recreationally. Its practically no longer used.

2) as you yourself said, many other far better rounds exist to hunt hog

3) AKs are more prone to jams in almost every environment, its “bomb proof” reliability is from its loose tolerances, which also make it prone to fouling.

4) you yourself said that 7.62 is limited standard. It isn’t because its a great round, its because the russians never were able to successfully liquidate their stocks of AKMs to replace with 74s.

 

[Raven]

your relying on a niche use case to say the .45-70 is still well-used. It isnt. No military uses it, and 90% of shooters (conservative guess) have never used it, not even recreationally. Its practically no longer used.

What is your 10% of US gun owners that have used 45-70? Man you're talking millions of gun owners in your 10%.

"How many gun owners are there in the United States?
393 million
There are more guns in the US than people. There are about 393 million privately owned firearms in the US, according to an estimate by the Switzerland-based Small Arms Survey – or in other words, 120 guns for every 100 Americans.Jun 2, 2022"

 

[72sofsme]

1) your relying on a niche use case to say the .45-70 is still well-used. It isnt. No military uses it, and 90% of shooters (conservative guess) have never used it, not even recreationally. Its practically no longer used.

2) as you yourself said, many other far better rounds exist to hunt hog

3) AKs are more prone to jams in almost every environment, its “bomb proof” reliability is from its loose tolerances, which also make it prone to fouling.

4) you yourself said that 7.62 is limited standard. It isn’t because its a great round, its because the russians never were able to successfully liquidate their stocks of AKMs to replace with 74s.

likewise:

1) antiquated when it remains in use by many guides (Not equal to) employed by any government. By the way the US Navy still uses the 45-70 cartridge as a line throwing charge (M32 I believe) for vessels underway... so, still in use??? hmmm

2)abandoned means something other than what the facts are with regards to the 7.62x39mm, as I stated in my example

3)equal value Does Not Mean "far better"

4)AK do offer loose tolerance compared to others but the Many examples of lessons learned throughout history also prove its value to many, such as Israel, S. Africa, Switzerland and Finland who all have developed their own unique platforms based from the AK.

5)the 104s are employed by Russian special units for very special reasons, they certainly could not use them but they do. I suppose you used that same logic with the 1911 in 45 ACP... when our own SF Teams were using them within the last 20 years in deployed warfare whereas the 9mm was standardized back in late 1980's ??? Strange indeed.

This is not a hit against you, just stating the facts

 

[72sofsme]

Now I will offer that the .223 Rem is absolutely ideal for groundhogs and predator hunting, there are states that will prohibit its use (laws) for hunting because of ethical kills and limit its use.

 

[lil'skeet]

1) your relying on a niche use case to say the .45-70 is still well-used. It isnt. No military uses it, and 90% of shooters (conservative guess) have never used it, not even recreationally. Its practically no longer used.

2) as you yourself said, many other far better rounds exist to hunt hog

3) AKs are more prone to jams in almost every environment, its “bomb proof” reliability is from its loose tolerances, which also make it prone to fouling.

4) you yourself said that 7.62 is limited standard. It isn’t because its a great round, its because the russians never were able to successfully liquidate their stocks of AKMs to replace with 74s.

I beg to differ on #3. Looser tolerances, yes.
I would bet on one of the top (5) most reliable semi auto | auto smalls arms ever made.
Not taking anything away from an AR, but there is a reason why the Kalashnikov hasn't changed since 1947. It's still in use all around the world. I would never expect any of my ARs to be able to take 1|3 of the abuse my AKs do.
Ask some Iraq & Afghanistan vets how that sand was on their M4s.

The AKs reliability is the reason it is my sub 500yds shtf weapon.

 

[Ozymandias]

likewise:

1) antiquated when it remains in use by many guides (Not equal to) employed by any government. By the way the US Navy still uses the 45-70 cartridge as a line throwing charge (M32 I believe) for vessels underway... so, still in use??? hmmm

2)abandoned means something other than what the facts are with regards to the 7.62x39mm, as I stated in my example

3)equal value Does Not Mean "far better"

4)AK do offer loose tolerance compared to others but the Many examples of lessons learned throughout history also prove its value to many, such as Israel, S. Africa, Switzerland and Finland who all have developed their own unique platforms based from the AK.

5)the 104s are employed by Russian special units for very special reasons, they certainly could not use them but they do. I suppose you used that same logic with the 1911 in 45 ACP... when our own SF Teams were using them within the last 20 years in deployed warfare whereas the 9mm was standardized back in late 1980's ??? Strange indeed.

This is not a hit against you, just stating the facts

1) if you think a line throwing cartridge is at all remotely comparable to the honest truth of how 45-70 is conventionally used, then the conversation is a lost cause. Im also unconcerned with vague “numbers of guides”, i appreciate statistically verifiable facts

2) the 7.62 is used only for lack of alternative in the vast manority of use cases. The Soviets saw it in the 70s, and have left it as limited standard since.

3) the idea that an 1870s cartidge is at all comparable to even turn of the century smokeless cartridges is laughable. This is also too low for me to bother discussing.

4) these countries adopted and adapted (because the AK itself is poor) it for the sake of affordability, and not because it was the end all be all of reliable platforms. This is old news

5) ah, the “SOF is infallible” argument. How quaint.

You do you.

 

[Ozymandias]

What is your 10% of US gun owners that have used 45-70? Man you're talking millions of gun owners in your 10%.

"How many gun owners are there in the United States?
393 million
There are more guns in the US than people. There are about 393 million privately owned firearms in the US, according to an estimate by the Switzerland-based Small Arms Survey – or in other words, 120 guns for every 100 Americans.Jun 2, 2022"

What are you even trying to ask?

 

[Ozymandias]

I beg to differ on #3. Looser tolerances, yes.
I would bet on one of the top (5) most reliable semi auto | auto smalls arms ever made.
Not taking anything away from an AR, but there is a reason why the Kalashnikov hasn't changed since 1947. It's still in use all around the world. I would never expect any of my ARs to be able to take 1|3 of the abuse my AKs do.
Ask some Iraq & Afghanistan vets how that sand was on their M4s.

The AKs reliability is the reason it is my sub 500yds shtf weapon.

Lol. I mean, you can compare sand and mud tests. The AR precluded contamination ingress, the AK is loose enough to compensste, to an extent.

The AR is fundamentally the same as it was in 1961, buy a better AR if you want it to last.

 

[lil'skeet]

Lol. I mean, you can compare sand and mud tests. The AR precluded contamination ingress, the AK is loose enough to compensste, to an extent.

The AR is fundamentally the same as it was in 1961, buy a better AR if you want it to last.

A better AR? Like a piston driven AR? That's not mil spec.

Not looking for a pissing match, but the
"3) AKs are more prone to jams in almost every environment, its “bomb proof” reliability is from its loose tolerances, which also make it prone to fouling."
That's the first time I've heard that.

 

[Ozymandias]

A better AR? Like a piston driven AR? That's not mil spec.

Not looking for a pissing match, but the
"3) AKs are more prone to jams in almost every environment, its “bomb proof” reliability is from its loose tolerances, which also make it prone to fouling."
That's the first time I've heard that.

The Piston driven AR isnt better, but it is milspec. See the HK416, M27 IAR

Im not saying anything new. Forgotten Weapons and InRangeTV have quite a plethora of technical analysis on the shortcomings of the AK.

 

[Ozymandias]

Also no worries about pssing matches, check my name. Its all ephemeral, so no point in getting stuck in for a verbal bout. You can do what you want with your money obv

 

[M118LR]

Now a long stroke Piston system like the AK should be compared against other short stroke Piston systems not DI systems. Basically a Mini-30 and a 7.62x 39 AK are on par for accuracy, which is well below DI AR's. Yet time afield has proven that DI systems even with chrome Chambers are more prone to jams,failures than Piston driven systems especially as the rounds per minute increased. As to the 7.62 x 39 as a hunting round, it's limited to the same 150 yards as the Old 30-30 on similar game. While the rainbow trajectories can be adjusted for, point blank range plays a far larger role in determining hit probability afield. Perhaps there is a better 6.5 or 7 mm round that provides greater compromise?

 

[Ozymandias]

Agree with most of that, i feel like DI AR’s have been proven to be generally as reliable if not more reliable than the AK specifically.

I also personally believe that piston AR’s are a gimmick. Just moves the carbon build up and allows you to fire a wet rifle i suppose

 

[M118LR]

Agree with most of that, i feel like DI AR’s have been proven to be generally as reliable if not more reliable than the AK specifically.

I also personally believe that piston AR’s are a gimmick. Just moves the carbon build up and allows you to fire a wet rifle i suppose

Perhaps those are only important if you find yourself afield with a carbon fouling related failure or in humid or salt air conditions? It seems that the SCAR is here to stay, while the M110 is fading fast. Once Uncle Sam runs through the enormous stockpile of spare M-16/4 parts, expect the next generation to return to Piston driven operation. JMHO.

 

[Anangrypasta]

Getting those thread back on track here.... an insider source on a PSA forum mentioned that PSA bought or acquired the HMG machinery for their original STG setup that was going on for a long while, including their R&D. That would mean that PSA has a big head start on getting these running. Also means it's more likely this is actually gonna happen, unlike their MP5 project that lost traction and then died when the MKEs started coming.

TLDR, as long as no foreign STGs get imported, this should happen soon!!!

Also, 300 BLK and x39 would be AWESOME in this.

 

[Fear21]

Now a short stroke Piston system like the AK should be compared against other short stroke Piston systems not DI systems. Basically a Mini-30 and a 7.62x 39 AK are on par for accuracy, which is well below DI AR's. Yet time afield has proven that DI systems even with chrome Chambers are more prone to jams,failures than Piston driven systems especially as the rounds per minute increased. As to the 7.62 x 39 as a hunting round, it's limited to the same 150 yards as the Old 30-30 on similar game. While the rainbow trajectories can be adjusted for, point blank range plays a far larger role in determining hit probability afield. Perhaps there is a better 6.5 or 7 mm round that provides greater compromise?

Just one thing of note, Kalashnikov variants operate on a long stroke piston system.

6.5 has proven time and time again to be an excellent caliber in its many iterations (Grendel, Swede, Carcano, Creedmoor, et al). For your purposes (hunting) and assuming we're talking semi-auto, Grendel would be the ideal choice IMO.

 

[moron1]

1) your relying on a niche use case to say the .45-70 is still well-used. It isnt. No military uses it, and 90% of shooters (conservative guess) have never used it, not even recreationally. Its practically no longer used.

2) as you yourself said, many other far better rounds exist to hunt hog

3) AKs are more prone to jams in almost every environment, its “bomb proof” reliability is from its loose tolerances, which also make it prone to fouling.

4) you yourself said that 7.62 is limited standard. It isn’t because its a great round, its because the russians never were able to successfully liquidate their stocks of AKMs to replace with 74s.

You are confusing the word “tolerances” with the word “clearances”. Hate to be a dick but when I hear someone say that it drives me nuts.

 

[M118LR]

Just one thing of note, Kalashnikov variants operate on a long stroke piston system.

6.5 has proven time and time again to be an excellent caliber in its many iterations (Grendel, Swede, Carcano, Creedmoor, et al). For your purposes (hunting) and assuming we're talking semi-auto, Grendel would be the ideal choice IMO.

Fixed it, typo. M1, M-14, AK-47 long stroke with bendable operating rods. Just wondering how much is too much for the STG? Original 7.92 X 33 mm. Nothing makes bent op rods quicker than too much powder. Example M1 Garand.

 

[Ozymandias]

You are confusing the word “tolerances” with the word “clearances”. Hate to be a dick but when I hear someone say that it drives me nuts.

Youre correct, thanks.

 

[Ozymandias]

Just one thing of note, Kalashnikov variants operate on a long stroke piston system.

6.5 has proven time and time again to be an excellent caliber in its many iterations (Grendel, Swede, Carcano, Creedmoor, et al). For your purposes (hunting) and assuming we're talking semi-auto, Grendel would be the ideal choice IMO.

6.5 was looked upon unfavorably by both the Italians and Japanese, for what its worth