Perception vs. Reality... Discussion please

[Little Jack]

So often with Firearms there's an associated Danger that goes along with them. Many assume that because police officers and soliders carry firearms that their jobs are dangerous. Do perception and reality meet up here? Where does "police officer" rate on the dangerous jobs list? Is the job of a police officer so dangerous that they should have the ability to infringe on the rights of an American Citizen? I'm not posting links or articles on purpose. Find your own answers. Please discuss.

An article I saw recently on Yahoo (I know. Real solid source.) discussed the dangerous job of cops in CA repossessing firearms from people that ended up on the no firearms list. That sounds really bad. But in the big scheme of things, how bad is it?

Perception and reality tend to be very different things. The media isn't there to make sure you get the truth.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go shoot my 22LR rifle that has a detachable magazine and a pistol grip (aka assault rifle).

 

[late bloomer]

I think that one of the reasons that a police officer's job is dangerous is because of the ability/duty to infringe on the rights of citizens. Most leo deaths/injuries are related to domestic violence situations. People don't want strangers in their homes, especially if they have committed a crime. Police officers are also very likely to be killed and/or injured in traffic related situations.
I think that the danger of the soldier's job speaks for itself.

 

[Telum Pisces]

When you look at numbers and take the perception and feelings out of it, bening a LE officer is not a dangerous profession when comparing workplace deaths. Offshore fishermen have a death rate of 121.5 per 100,000 for on the job fatalities. This is compared to a rate of 1.56 per 100,000 for the LE career field.

Over 50% of all workplace related fatalities involved a transportation related incident. So the most dangerous part of a LE person's job is driving around if they are a patrol officer. I've seen one statistic that stated that 42% of all traffic related deaths of LE officers resulted because the officer was not wearing their seat belt. I know there are some officers that don't wear their belts for one reason or another. I know them personally.

So when you look at statistics and take out all the feel good stuff, the most dangerous part of a patrol officer's day is when he is riding around in the cruiser. And if they would wear their seat belt, they lessen their chances there too.

The average rate for all US jobs is 3.5 per 100,000

This is all from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

 

[CCHGN]

Well, imo, you're talking about perceptions and misperceptions and several different issues- why/how someone else determines dangerous jobs; why you perceive that LE infringe on citizens' rights; why you DON'T perceive that soldiers don't; why you even bring this up.

1. dangerous jobs......there is no way for me to know why or how someone else determines why a soldier or cop are dangerous jobs, but I determine that because of the direct and very real threat of being killed. Imo, it is not a misperception, in both professions, there are folks set out to kill them.

2. Funny that you didn't mention the possiblility that soldiers infringe on citizens' rights. I'm not saying they do or don't, I'm simply observing that you grouped soldiers and LE as having dangerous jobs, but then only mention LE as infringing on citizens' rights, by saying it's BECAUSE of the dangerous job, that gives them the ability to infringe on citizens' rights. Soldiers have the same danger, yet you don't correlate them.

2. IMO, the fact that you imply( if not come right out and say) that LE infringe on citizen's rights is a misperception on your part.

I think this stems from a misperception what rights we have. Whether its right or wrong, driving on the roads is a priviledge and by having a DL means we agree to obey all laws and submit to alcohol tests. Case law has determined that LE has a right to investigate further upon reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed. Other than that, I'm not sure what other rights you think that are being infringed or why you make a blanket statement that the LE does so..

 

[Welldoya]

I think a lot of how dangerous a LEO's job is would have to do with where he works. I'm betting a cop in Detroit has a lot more dangerous job than a cop in Milton. Or that is my perception anyway.
BUT, it is getting a lot more dangerous around here with some of the influx of people the last few years. Plus people are just getting crazier. (ask MulletHunter)
To me , the worst part of being a cop would be having to be on high alert all the time. I know I wouldn't want to drop my guard for a minute. It would be that minute that something would happen.

 

[Little Jack]

Well, imo, you're talking about perceptions and misperceptions and several different issues- why/how someone else determines dangerous jobs; why you perceive that LE infringe on citizens' rights; why you DON'T perceive that soldiers don't; why you even bring this up.

1. dangerous jobs......there is no way for me to know why or how someone else determines why a soldier or cop are dangerous jobs, but I determine that because of the direct and very real threat of being killed. Imo, it is not a misperception, in both professions, there are folks set out to kill them.

2. Funny that you didn't mention the possiblility that soldiers infringe on citizens' rights. I'm not saying they do or don't, I'm simply observing that you grouped soldiers and LE as having dangerous jobs, but then only mention LE as infringing on citizens' rights, by saying it's BECAUSE of the dangerous job, that gives them the ability to infringe on citizens' rights. Soldiers have the same danger, yet you don't correlate them.

2. IMO, the fact that you imply( if not come right out and say) that LE infringe on citizen's rights is a misperception on your part.

I think this stems from a misperception what rights we have. Whether its right or wrong, driving on the roads is a priviledge and by having a DL means we agree to obey all laws and submit to alcohol tests. Case law has determined that LE has a right to investigate further upon reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed. Other than that, I'm not sure what other rights you think that are being infringed or why you make a blanket statement that the LE does so..

Your first point is one of the main reasons I started this thread. Telum noted that it's much more "dangerous" to be an off shore fisherman than it is to be LE. LE is well below the average. I realize that a single number does not tell whole story.

I concentrated on LE as infringers because you are much more likely to run into an LE in your day to day life. How often is the average citizen pulled over by a soldier? Ultimately, anyone with a firearm has the ability to infringe on your rights if they have the motivation or authority(perceived or otherwise).

For your second #2. I'm not claiming that all LE infringe on everyone's rights everyday. Are you saying that it never happens?

I don't want this conversation to be about whether LE/soldiers do or don't infringe on your rights. I wanted to get peoples thoughts on what a dangerous job is or isn't and how carrying a firearm affects the perception of what a dangerous job is or isn't.

 

[flyandscuba]

Yes, perception is much different than reality...

The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) has just released its preliminary count of workplace fatalities for 2010.

The average rate of fatalities per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers is 3.5.

Keeping that in mind, here are the top 10 occupations with the highest fatality rates:

1.fishers and related fishing workers: 116.0
2.logging workers: 91.9
3.aircraft pilots and flight engineers: 70.6
4.farmers and ranchers: 41.4
5.mining machine operators: 38.7
6.roofers: 32.4
7.refuse and recyclable material collectors: 29.8
8.driver/sales workers and truck drivers: 21.8
9.industrial machinery installation, repair and maintenance workers: 20.3, and
10.police and sheriff’s patrol officers: 18.0.

The top industry sectors with fatalities are:

1.Agriculture, forestry, fishing and hunting: 26.8
2.Mining: 19.8, and
3.Transportation and warehousing: 13.1.
The percentage of worker fatalities by age:

» under 16: < 0.5%
» 16-17: < 0.5%
» 18-19: 1%
» 20-24: 5%
» 25-34: 17%
» 35-44: 19%
» 45-54: 25%
» 55-64: 20%, and
» 65 and older: 12%.

BLS reported there were 4,547 workplace fatalities in 2010. The highest number of fatalities by industry:

1.trade, transportation and utilities: 1,141
2.natural resources and mining: 768
3.construction: 751
4.professional and business services: 356, and
5.manufacturing: 320.

 

[CCHGN]

....I don't want this conversation to be about whether LE/soldiers do or don't infringe on your rights. I wanted to get peoples thoughts on what a dangerous job is or isn't and how carrying a firearm affects the perception of what a dangerous job is or isn't.

Oh ok, 'cause it sure sounded like you're trying to say that because cops carry guns, they feel that they should have the ability to infringe on citizens' rights. I just don't know why that would even be mentioned, if it's simply about the perception of dangerous jobs. That confused me.

AFA perceiveing a dangerous job simply by the gun, cops (and soldiers) carry alot of other stuff, too. IMo, most folks perceive the danger based on what they do, not what they carry. IOW, the gun doesn't make the job dangerous, the fact that folks are out to specifically kill them is what makes it dangerous

 

[CCHGN]

Yes, perception is much different than reality..The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) has just released its preliminary count of workplace fatalities for 2010.

The average rate of fatalities per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers is 3.5.

Keeping that in mind, here are the top 10 occupations with the highest fatality rates:

1.fishers and related fishing workers: 116.0
2.logging workers: 91.9
3.aircraft pilots and flight engineers: 70.6
4.farmers and ranchers: 41.4
5.mining machine operators: 38.7
6.roofers: 32.4
7.refuse and recyclable material collectors: 29.8
8.driver/sales workers and truck drivers: 21.8
9.industrial machinery installation, repair and maintenance workers: 20.3, and
10.police and sheriff’s patrol officers: 18.0.

.

Yeah, perception IS much different than reality, like the reality of using that chart to make ,,,what point? That fishing is more dangerous than LE or soldiering?


I have OSHA 30 and can put that chart in a more realistic perception. Most workplace fatalities are directly related to safety, or lack thereof. Most deaths and accidents can be traced directly to a safety violation, either that a person comitted or that a employer did. This is completely different than a LE or especially Soldiers. No matter how safe they are, they can be ambushed or bombed and killed. The difference is, other humans are INTENT on killing them. IMO, that's what makes it more dangerous.

 

[flyandscuba]

Nate -- you are at greater risk with a flight student in a TN-57 than the average LEO is in his/her cruiser... :wink:

 

[FrankT]

All of us are more at risk just driving on the roads. In fact we as citizens are more at risk to violent crime so the LEO can come and write the report After the fact!

 

[Telum Pisces]

My opinion is that most people have a hard time, or even an impossible time seperating their feelings and perceptions from reality on most anything.

The perception of firearms are that they are dangerous. Firearms can be used to defend and protect you and others from dangerous situations whether LE or not. They are the best tool for the job, PERIOD!!!!!! When we invent weapons that shoot mass balls of energy (like the movies), I am sure the LE community will adapt to those weapons as well. Our southern culture around here still values a firearm for what it is mostly. A tool. But people with firearms do have power of those without them. That is why I carry one and that is why LE carry one as well. You must have power over those wishing to do harm to you. Otherwise you are doomed to get served what ever the other person wishes for you.

Is a LE officer's job a bit more dangerous than my Engineer job at my desk. Darn tootin. But there plenty of jobs out there that don't require that you carry a gun that are more dangerous. I am sure that the offshore fisherman looks at the cops and laughs when the cop tells him that he has a dangerous job. I on the otherhand will say heck yeah, your job is dangerous. It's all in relation to what the person does compared to a LE job. There are a lot more desk jockies out there compared to offshore fishermen.

I think the safest job is one where you don't have to deal with mother nature or other people. Hence why I got an engineering degree to sit indoors and not deal with the general public. I'll gladly get my joy rides and thrills on my terms and not on my daily work schedule. But other's want to be outside and work with people. So they do what they do and I do what I do. And the world turns for another day.

 

[flyandscuba]

Yeah, perception IS much different than reality, like the reality of using that chart to make ,,,what point? That fishing is more dangerous than LE or soldiering?

Yes, the numbers don't lie... Those are actual workplace fatality statistics. 116 out of 100,000 in the fishing profession die on the job -- compared to 18 out of 100,000 cops. Workplace deaths are workplace deaths -- it matters not if the cause is due to their actions (or lack thereof) or the actions of others. LEO deaths are romantic and make the news more commonly than a good ol' boy farmer who gets turned into sausage when he gets tangled up into a PTO from a tractor. The risks of FATALITY (not injury) are greater in the 9 professions above LEO.

Oh, and my CSP, OHST, CHCM and MS in Safety Engineering trump your 30-hour OSHA class... :wink:

 

[flyandscuba]

Here's a slide from a presentation I did in Birmingham and Alpharetta last week for area LEOs. 46% of LEO fatalities are related to traffic (patrol driving, emergency response driving, pursuit driving, hit by a vehicle on the roadside, etc.); 46% of LEO fatalities are as a result of felonious assault (beating, stabbing, shooting, etc.); and 8% are due to other causes.

So, less than helf of LEO fatalities are due to what we think of as being from "bad guys".

LEOs are the ultimate distracted driver by design. Budgets and manpower limitations do not allow the luxury of two officer per vehicle in most areas. So, the officer must operate the vehicle (sometimes outside the safety envelope of "normal" operations), while at the same time surveilling/scanning for crime -- all the while distracted by radios on multiple frequencies, sometimes multiple cell phone, radar units, cameras, GPS units, computer terminals/laptops, controls for emergency lights and warning devices -- as well as restriction in the field of view by a barrier or cage in the back. Add one or two detainees in the back and it can be quite chaotic to operate a vehicle safely.

Throw a Type "A" personality in the mix with an attitude that the fleeing motorist isn't going to get away -- and you can see why pursuit collisions result in first, second, and third party fatalities... Thus why we give them so much attention in our training programs.

Here's one of the "fun" training programs for a couple of my clients:

http://vimeo.com/38199133

Yep, Six Flags parking lot makes a great training location when they are closed for the winter season...

 

[Zeus]

In my lifetime I have worked in several different fields that were statistically more dangerous than a LEO.

But could anyone ever pay me enough to be a LEO ? .... No

I could not, or would not deal well with the scum and head cases that they have to deal with anymore in society.

"Danger" aside I think teachers and LEO's are vastly underpaid.

And now back to your regularly scheduled topic ................

 

[Fletch]

Not as dangerous as an unarmed overnight Tom Thumb clerk that's for sure! Seriously though it would be a lot more dangerous to be knocking on the door of a MS13 gang member than some poor guy who had a crazy ex put a restraining order on him just to be spiteful and cause him hardship. We all can agree that dangerous felons should not have firearms but that list goes a little far in my opinion. I imagine if I was a police officer I would have a problem doing that job, but if I had joined the force at a young age I would most likely have a different perspective than I do now.

Get falsely accused of domestic violence and there is no recourse or ability to defend yourself.....you're dangerous and we are here for you guns. I was a little shocked that they didn't have warrants and this was a coercive operation. If it was a legitimate activity one would think a judge would sign off on it. Especially in California which has to have it's fair share of liberal minded judges. Sounds good on the surface but looked like straight up gun confiscation to me. Illinois has a law that anyone convicted of a DUI can't reside in a house with guns or alcohol.

So your husband, wife, kid, brother, dad, etc gets a DUI and you have to give up your guns and beer or kick family out on the street? That is so obviously wrong and unconstitutional but is a reality in some parts of the US. These kind of laws just encourage lawful people to obtain firearms with no traceable path. It's dang sure not a good idea to admit to any sort of depression to a Doctor. It's a sad day when you need to take a lawyer with you to answer general questions about your health on a routine physical exam.

I say let the crazies have their states with whacked out laws and let us have ours. But that's not the liberal way. Just as the women was quoted in the article to Biden. They want to be the model for the whole country because they are so much smarter than all us necks in flyover country clinging to our God and guns. Isn't it ironic that 50% of the jobs created in the past 5 years have been in the great state of Texas. Californians are heading east in droves. Senator Ted Cruz half jokingly wants to have them sign a pledge upon entering Texas stating that they realize why they had to leave California and pledge not to bring their failed job killing liberal ideals into the great state of Texas and embrace the limited government ideals that allow business and commerce to thrive.

 

[wildrider666]

Any person or group can run numbers, the results are moot compared to the underlying questions. "Danger as Perceived" can only be measured by the person facing the danger (Mil, LE or civ) and his/her currrent level of readiness to counter and overcome it. If your a Sheriff in Mayberry, PFC Admin Clerk in Kansas, or Civ in Bodunk Idaho, you may never draw a weapon in confrontation or preemption. If your a LE in LA you may draw a dozen times a shift, a PFC in the Sandbox "locked and loaded" or a Civ that CCW's or answers the door with firearm: IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL.

If someone wants to go crabbing for a few months for a big payday at high risk: that is their choice. IMHO there is a difference between being in harms way in the normal course of the day and another to poke a bear with a stick.

I do have a great appreciation for Mil and LE for the work they do.