My problems with IDPA and other gun games that I know of

[FrommerStop]

Wrong is a relative term, outdated is more appropriate. For instance the slinging technique taught by SI of dropping the rifle across your back works fine in the plains of Africa with a fixed two point sling and was state of the art in 1978. Slings and slinging techniques have progressed since then. Try their technique in a confined space or in close proximity to an adversary and it doesn't work very well. That is just one example of clinging to things just for the sake of being different.

I hold no ill will with Gabe. The same can't be said of him, but it's all good. It was pretty funny when he threatened to sue us all though and went away with his tail tucked after his cheap non-spelling lawyer was schooled.

slinging techniques and such are things I would like to know more about. On the AK I still use the 18th century or older two point sling. it is very KISS but that does not mean there is not are better equipment and techniques out there.

 

[RussSurfs]

As a fairly new shooter, I can say I thought I could shoot well until I started shooting the IDPA matches. I had shot a lot of rounds in a static square range. I thought I would be fine if I ever had to pull my carry gun. I would have been fine as long as the bad guy would stand still and give me unlimited time to aim. While I certainly agree that IDPA is a game it showed me a lot of weaknesses in my shooting. As I try to get better at the game I have spent a lot of time drawing and shooting on the move and around cover that I doubt I would have practiced otherwise. I'm not certainly nowhere near as skilled a people that carry a gun for a living - but I'm way better than I would have been if I had not tried competition.

 

[wildrider666]

My view on Competitions, Training and Real Life.

Competition or Games if you prefer,* do not provide formal training. They provide new shooting scenarios within forced perimeters under simulated/self imposed stress.** How you respond once the gun is in hand is whats important.* You learn from your mistakes and from wisdom shared by those you learn to trust. *Its okay to lack skill but not good to show up without ingrained and practiced gun safety and handling basics. **

Shooting skill learned via competition are good but who carries a full race gun or a Glock 34/35 as their primary CCW?** If you "carry" a LC9 but change to Glock at the second IDPA Match to "compete" against others you are sacraficing self improvement with your primary CCW.* Does every round you fire in these scenarios provide a benifit to your overall skill: YES. Is there a greater benefit a match with your carry or house gun? YES!

Because you must follow the events rules, you may have to use gear and holster locations you don't use in real life.* Okay, different is not equal to bad.** We (should) have and continue to practiced our preferred carry position draw/presentation thousands of times and imprinted it on our brain and muscle memory.** It will not degrade with intermittent alternative gun placement as long as you conntinue to practice from your standard carry. My CCW placement falls to two locations based on my attire and sometimes the gun is different too.* We work around these minor changes.** It is not likely anyone would forget where their CCW was located and try and draw from a Match required location that is seldom used.* On top of this, some people carry a back up gun (BUG) and have those presentation requirements too.* Occasionally there will be a BUG Side Match but again not drawn from carriers prefered position.

You can get Tips (good & bad) or education if you want to call it that, on all facets of gun handling and employment on the Net or you can buy DVDs and work on self improvement.* The problem is you don't get evaluation or feedback.**If you can catch the minute details of you own mistakes, why are you making them in the first place? You must rely on memory when you are on the firing line later on.* No mirrors, no dvd player and no personal interaction when you need it most.*

Training comes in many forms and at several levels.* I'll skip the inter family, youth org. CWP classes and Mil/LE training.*** Beyond these you have formal firearms training (private or group) that run from basic on up.* The quality of the training provide varies. You should be as selective with them as your choice of firearm and ammo.** Is there real world value in this training? It depends on the quality of the program, the desire of the student to learn, their adaptability, and the students continued practice of the new and perishable skills be it basic or advanced.*

Are these skill sets relevant in the real world? Overlooking some demo/drills that are for motivation or confidence builders:* Yes, if you retain and practice them to the point they are your automatic response when the appropriate situation arises.* I think few students could go back a year later and correctly demonstrate all the skills and shoot the qualifying course of fire for those programs that have it.** Even if you retain 25% of the skill are you still better off? Yes.

Quality Training takes a bite out of the budget.* You may need to add travel, meals lodging and incidentals on top of Couse fees and ammo.

The cost of Matches varies by what type, class, gun and ammo. Travel meals and lodging may also be needed. These are available to fit most peoples needs and budgets.

Precieved mall ninjas and sensei. Yes they are out there. Skills that deliver results matter not the tacticool fashion and gear parade. I think its kind of funny to wear camo when there is no need for camo too. Depending on what "your doing" changes in gear maybe beneficial. If it has nothing to contribute, ignore it or them. Know that you are being screened too. Lol The Games were different several decads ago: no gloves, pads, electronic ear muffs or shorts. Times change, so do the Sport, training and gear. I would pay attention to a guy in a clown outfit if he was running away with the Score.

I think you can shoot matches for fun, a personal challange or competition for the gold ring.
Can you learn incrementally at matches? Yes.**
Do the benifits outweigh the cons from using different presentation, firearm or capacity? Yes.*
Are matches a substitute for formal training? No.*

I'm just pointing out few thing as I see it and how I value them.

 

[FrommerStop]

Thanks for the lengthy response. There obviously has been a change in thinking in that many if not most do understand that these are games and some of what is done in the game is not suitable for real life. In past this was not thinking of some enthusiastic IDPA people. So we getting closer to being on the same page.
Much of what you wrote is what and how things are for sure. BUT:

We (should) have and continue to practiced our preferred carry position draw/presentation thousands of times and imprinted it on our brain and muscle memory.** It will not degrade with intermittent alternative gun placement as long as you conntinue to practice from your standard carry.

People in stress conditions will rely on muscle memory from how they normally shoot. Difficult, but not impossible for a highly dedicated individual to learn different muscle sets and to apply the correct set under unexpected stress. I and a lot people besides shooting have other interests and do not want to train like that. My point is learning it just one way and relying on it. I strongly believe in KISS. I am not good under stress and do not deal with alternatives. I want it as simple as possible. When I did IDPA yrs ago at what was then ERML I used my subcompact glock carry gun and tried to avoid being conscious of trying to get points by going fast. I retained my mags. I did notice for me in order to complete some of those scenarios I did a lot better after watching a couple of others run through first.
Even then I often skipped targets. So the games are good for trying to teach some thinking which is needed under stress,
Most the moving while shooting was very misleading in making many people think that were good shots while moving. At that time many adopted this slow, steady walk movement while shooting while at targets. In essence they were not moving fast enough to provide a challenge to someone shooting at them. I ran flat out for such stages and did not hit much. But I train more not to get shot then to shoot someone. At the end of day I want to be walking away under my own power.
Such games are of some value in learning to be more alert and think under pressure, but the assault mentality that IDPA teaches I just consider to be too dangerous for real scenarios. Those are my thoughts and of course for everyone go out and enjoy your sport and be happy.

I would be interested in doing force on force type classes if ERGC ever offers it.

 

[Jerry]

I think anytime you get to shoot you have the opportunity to learn something and get better. I don't do IDPA or other type matches because I'm not into then. But I gotta say, shooting under limited pressure, timed, from angles and multiple distances IS a form of training. Maybe a little different from the OP, but It certainly can't hurt!

 

[Qoholeth]

Might be that you get some gun handling under a bit of time & social pressure. From what I've observed some of the "tactical" no gamers don't handle their guns very safely under pressure, muzzle direction, malfunction clearing, etc. YMMV

I agree with the OP, these games tend to train bad habits, while they may be fun, I am not sure how they help in real life.

 

[Qoholeth]

Maybe one of us IDPA gamers should go over to the Tactical subform and comment on how boring and uncompetitive that form of shooting is. Or start a Tactical shooting forum for those so inclined to share with like minded individuals, rather than knock some else's preference. Just saying!

Thanks for the lengthy response. There obviously has been a change in thinking in that many if not most do understand that these are games and some of what is done in the game is not suitable for real life. In past this was not thinking of some enthusiastic IDPA people. So we getting closer to being on the same page.
Much of what you wrote is what and how things are for sure. BUT:

People in stress conditions will rely on muscle memory from how they normally shoot. Difficult, but not impossible for a highly dedicated individual to learn different muscle sets and to apply the correct set under unexpected stress. I and a lot people besides shooting have other interests and do not want to train like that. My point is learning it just one way and relying on it. I strongly believe in KISS. I am not good under stress and do not deal with alternatives. I want it as simple as possible. When I did IDPA yrs ago at what was then ERML I used my subcompact glock carry gun and tried to avoid being conscious of trying to get points by going fast. I retained my mags. I did notice for me in order to complete some of those scenarios I did a lot better after watching a couple of others run through first.
Even then I often skipped targets. So the games are good for trying to teach some thinking which is needed under stress,
Most the moving while shooting was very misleading in making many people think that were good shots while moving. At that time many adopted this slow, steady walk movement while shooting while at targets. In essence they were not moving fast enough to provide a challenge to someone shooting at them. I ran flat out for such stages and did not hit much. But I train more not to get shot then to shoot someone. At the end of day I want to be walking away under my own power.
Such games are of some value in learning to be more alert and think under pressure, but the assault mentality that IDPA teaches I just consider to be too dangerous for real scenarios. Those are my thoughts and of course for everyone go out and enjoy your sport and be happy.

I would be interested in doing force on force type classes if ERGC ever offers it.

 

[ChrisC]

Maybe one of us IDPA gamers should go over to the Tactical subform and comment on how boring and uncompetitive that form of shooting is. Or start a Tactical shooting forum for those so inclined to share with like minded individuals, rather than knock some else's preference. Just saying!

Bro! Tactical shooting is totally not boring. It teaches me tactical advantage en stuff like that. Besides, chicks dig the tactical facial hair nowadays.

 

[TennJeep1618]

Besides, chicks dig the tactical facial hair nowadays.

This is true.

 

[TennJeep1618]

I think that the majority of people will agree that competition shooting is not a 100% substitute for defensive (tactical) training. Those that are using competition for such are misguided; however, they are in all likelihood improving their shooting skills for whatever situation may arise.

The thought that competition shooting will "get you killed in the streets" is misguided as well. In fact, the more someone shoots different types of competition with different rule sets, the easier it becomes to adapt to different scenarios.

Shooting under the stress of competition can and will identify weaknesses in skill and equipment. Anyone who has any experience with competition cannot argue that fact. If you choose to learn from those weaknesses and improve on them, you will become a better shooter in general. As far as the types of holsters and equipment allowed or not allowed in a specific type of competition: if you are a halfway experienced shooter, 5 minutes of dry fire will generally get you accustomed to using whatever equipment you have on at that particular time.



I encourage everyone that has an opinion on this topic to listen to this 10 minute audio clip (which happened to be posted a day before this thread was started): http://www.triangletactical.net/2016/04/07/make-tactical-community-better-shooters/

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject.

I'll leave this thread open for discussion as long as it remains civil.

 

[Qoholeth]

Criticizing different forms of shooting disciplines, to arrive the one which is "best" is like driving on a two lane road, people can travel in opposite directions without harm as long as everyone stays in their own lane, both parties get where their going. "Rev out"

 

[Hipower]

I remember Frommerstop coming out and shooting with us and it was quite a while ago. True, some people are aggressive on the courses to have the best possible times, but others are more careful about using cover and not exposing themselves to more than one threat at a time in order not to get shot. We also shoot many different scenarios where we are retreating from the bad guy while trying to make ourselves a hard target hopefully for someone who doesn't practice either. Not to get shot is the main idea rather than putting bullets in the bad guy, but when that is your choice in surviving a "dynamic critical incident" as one trainer puts it, you better have your mechanics down pat. They are not going to give you a "time out" to get ready and if you don't respond well under stress, I suggest you get stressed to hopefully get past it so when the time comes for you to react, you may have a little more edge than you would had you not practiced or gotten artificially stressed.

 

[SAWMAN]

Waaaaay back when I used to compete to win and win only. That was the ONLY thought in my mind. Nowadays I do not compete but if I did my goal would be different. I would compete to get better at shooting,and the SD/HD thing.

I would attempt to hit a happy medium between speed and accuracy. Given the suspected(hopeful)training of the BG that I will be in "competition" with during a real life incident,if I had to pick that main thing to work on,it would be accuracy.

I am one of the type people that will not "duck" when shot at. Don't get me wrong,I WILL attempt to move to cover though. I just feel that with my resolve not to be the victim and given even reasonable accuracy for my age,I will win the "competition". I also feel that added to this is my choice of weapon,ammo,and the power and destruction that the chosen ammo will deliver. Also the fact that my weapon is a good compromise between raw power and the recoil impulse to help me deliver accurate shots on target with "shoot him to the ground" repeatability. Given I carry a hi cap Glock I will have plenty of shots needed in case of a "that could never happen" ............ miss.

All my reloads(mags) are what I call "long" reloads. The next longer mag is always carried as a reload to my Glock carry gun.

There is no substitute for training. "You WILL fight like you train". --- SAWMAN

 

[barebones1]

I remember Frommerstop coming out and shooting with us and it was quite a while ago. True, some people are aggressive on the courses to have the best possible times, but others are more careful about using cover and not exposing themselves to more than one threat at a time in order not to get shot. We also shoot many different scenarios where we are retreating from the bad guy while trying to make ourselves a hard target hopefully for someone who doesn't practice either. Not to get shot is the main idea rather than putting bullets in the bad guy, but when that is your choice in surviving a "dynamic critical incident" as one trainer puts it, you better have your mechanics down pat. They are not going to give you a "time out" to get ready and if you don't respond well under stress, I suggest you get stressed to hopefully get past it so when the time comes for you to react, you may have a little more edge than you would had you not practiced or gotten artificially stressed.

Sent you a pm

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[Eddie]

I am going to be controversial here.
Here are some of my problems with the common gun games. Games are fun for sure and I have nothing against those that like to play them.

Any performance type shooting that I do I want it to reflect how I would defend myself under real conditions and not learn bad habits.
Carry-from IDPA rules
First of my problems-
8.5.1.19 Not Permitted (Non-Inclusive list):
8.5.1.19.1 Cross-draw carry
8.5.1.19.2 Shoulder holsters
8.5.1.19.3 Small of the back carry
8.5.1.19.4 Appendix carry
8.5.1.19.5 Pocket carry

1) Rules are written for the lowest common denominator. Have you watched some of the folks shooting these matches handle a firearm? I've had far too many guns pointed at me. I shudder to think of some people using a non-strong side holster.

2) These "games" are not training.

3) Did you get the drama you needed?

 

[Eddie]

Bro! Tactical shooting is totally not boring. It teaches me tactical advantage en stuff like that. Besides, chicks dig the tactical facial hair nowadays.

Since when do you have facial hair (s)?

 

[ChrisC]

Since when do you have facial hair (s)?

Ya got me there Ed. Well played Sir.

 

[Eddie]

Clean cut is a better look for you. What are the chances we'll see you at Talon in the near future?

 

[Jeb21]

IDPA teaches you skills, such as shooting on the move, shooting strong hand only and weak hand only, and learning to reload under pressure. It also gives you a group of good guys to socialize with who can also be a resource - be it about new gear or different handguns or just friendship. Like any sport there are rules and limitations but those are primarily for your safety. Worse case scenario you get to spend a few hours with like minded folks shooting and having fun.

 

[Dan1612]

Since when do you have facial hair (s)?

Since he started Mexican carrying his 1911, and watching Yager's Ed Hardy rocking awesomeness