Wrong apartment....

[Bowhntr6pt]

I doesn't matter what any of us think. The lawyer clearly stated Supreme Court precedence and this will be judged by public opinion.

Typical stance from this guy but I do like a good deal of what he does. He made no mention that the deputy announced his presence... a very important legal aspect to consider. He glanced over the nature of the call that brought the deputy there to begin with... possible argument/physical violence.

There's no way that Airman didn't hear that announcement.

What's he says about LE having no obligation to investigate Karen calls... we've seen that play out where LE didn't respond and something was actually happening so folks wanted police accountability... can't have it both ways. Thanks to lawyers... good and bad, there's no winning. Every incident will be spun the way someone wants it.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

yea, i get that... its no worries to make bad life/death decisions when your not held accountable... you damn well bet I expect more from law enforcement, why dont you?? ...just watched the video and its unforgivable.... I will always get pissed about the LEO mentality of judge, jury, & executioner of innocent people.. there's a lot of things that deputy should be responsible for if he is granted a license to kill... we all know that the leo community will circle the wagons around him and blame the airman & the lady the deputy listened to & tell us that's it was tragic but unavoidable given the circumstances and the deputy acted as he was trained and we'll all be pissed & shaking our heads in amazement just like we do when the Dem's say elections are fair and honest.. local law is getting as bad as federal law... and thats disgraceful...

Instead of having an axe to grind, why don't you clear your mind and really consider the totality of exactly what happened here with an open mind and real-life legal perspective.

I'm not suggesting you agree with me in that this event was predictable... rather not jump so hard on the side that this is completely unavoidable, completely legally wrong, and was pure incompetence at it's best, and that no matter what "the system" will ensure no one is held accountable on the LE side of things.

Remember... people much more learned and experienced in these matters, as viewed from a reasonable prudent person perspective, and in the heat of the moment, have established legal precedent on this type of encounter and results.

This will no doubt play out in court... no matter what the court findings... lives were ruined and I'm not seeing any malice or rally to protect.

 

[Ric-san]

This shooting seems to be evenly split by our own folks. My prediction, the cop will be cleared, the Sheriffs Department will fall under DOJ re-training for violation of civil rights, the county will do a payout to Ambulance chaser Crump., who’s representing the family of the Airman. No BLM or Antifa rioting will occur here (had it happened in say Chicago or NYC, then yes). My own take away is don’t answer the door with a gun when anyone is pounding on your door, nothing good will come out in the long run. Again, my own opinion. What say you…?

 

[no woryz]

"cant have it both ways" classic LEO....

so you are simply unable to fight crime without killing a few innocent people in their own home on a regular basis... now reading that theyre blaming the guy for having a gun in his apartment... yup, now its the airmans fault that some idiot was banging on his door and hiding from view and he had no reasonable expectation that LEO was ready to shoot him... and that's acceptable law enforcement... your defense is great for dealing with criminal behavior, it a bad defense when they are at the wrong house killing innocent people..I'm shaking my head like I described earlier...

 

[MarkJ]

What the lawyer said that was compelling;

• The officer had no relevant information about the occupant
• The occupant didn't raise or point the gun at the Officer
• It's perfectly legal to open a door holding a firearm pointed at the floor
• If you opened the door for the UPS guy with a gun in your hand pointed at the floor and the UPS guy shot you dead, what would happen to the UPS guy?

If the Officer wasn't standing smack dab in front of the door (who does that?) and was off to the side during the knock and announce, when the door opened he would have seen the weapon without being in any direct line of fire and could have given the occupant directives to drop the weapon.

Not a justified shooting in my opinion. Same Police Force as the acorn cop, have to wonder what's going on there?

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

"cant have it both ways" classic LEO....

so you are simply unable to fight crime without killing a few innocent people in their own home on a regular basis... and that's acceptable law enforcement... I'm shaking my head like I described earlier...

If my posts, which are an attempt to discuss, clarify, educate, and explain leave you with that conclusion, I can't help it.

As a career LE guy, I've always been neutral in my discussions here and on other boards. I'm not out to defend poor police conduct, rather, provide an insight as to what twenty-five years of working the road has taught me about human interactions.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

What the lawyer said that was compelling;

• The officer had no relevant information about the occupant
• The occupant didn't raise or point the gun at the Officer
• It's perfectly legal to open a door holding a firearm pointed at the floor
• If you opened the door for the UPS guy with a gun in your hand pointed at the floor and the UPS guy shot you dead, what would happen to the UPS guy?

If the Officer wasn't standing smack dab in front of the door (who does that?) and was off to the side during the knock and announce, when the door opened he would have seen the weapon without being in any direct line of fire and could have given the occupant directives to drop the weapon.

Not a justified shooting in my opinion. Same Police Force as the acorn cop, have to wonder what's going on there?

Listen to what the courts said between 7:13-7:50... clear as mud?

Officer to warn if feasible, Mere presence of gun not enough for DF... then the switch in that stance prefaced by the word HOWEVER, followed up with... but if a person has a gun available for ready use officer doesn't have to hope for the best... that's the slippery slope I've been trying to convey.

Sounds like even the court want's it both ways.


ETA- Here's a flip-side to the lawyer's video...

A lawyer for the officer in court would most likely stress 1) Officer was dispatched to a call where it wasn't unreasonable to expect to encounter someone arguing and/or aggravated (nature of the initial call as you go to these multiple times a day); 2) the offers knocked several times on the door, and with such a small apartment, it's reasonable to believe any occupants were aware of a presence at the door (important for #3); 3) the officers were not greeted physically or verbally for several minutes during their attempts to summon someone to the door (not normal behavior for most folks where there is a knock at the door when nothing is going on, people usually respond to answer or ask who's there. A delayed response during the stated conditions could reasonably be inferred as something just might be going on here suggesting someone is avoiding LE contact, not illegal, just goes to the totality of the situation and considerations); 4) when a person appeared, they were armed.

There are both aggravating and mitigating circumstances in this case IMO. One can paint which ever picture they wish.

 

[F4E Phantom]

After seeing video, young man made a serious mistake by answering the door with gun in hand. I feel bad for the deputy, young mans family. The slimy lawyer can go to hell.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

After seeing video, young man made a serious mistake by answering the door with gun in hand. I feel bad for the deputy, young mans family. The slimy lawyer can go to hell.

Probably the best post thus far... if I had shot that kid I'd be a mental mess.

His words... I don't have it; it's over there... would haunt me.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

It's another mass media distraction to cause divided options;For one, This isn't a civil rights matter, it's more of a constitutional rights matter;But it's perfect timing.Now we can see it all over every news outlet just in time to distract from Election year

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

It's not out of the ordinary for someone to knock on your door and say anything they can to get you to open your door in our POS neighborhood;These zombies look for easy targets over here

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

It's not out of the ordinary for someone to knock on your door and say anything they can to get you to open your door in our POS neighborhood;These zombies look for easy targets over here

My 100lb baby answers the door before I consider arming myself personally

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

My 100lb baby answers the door before I consider arming myself personally

I have cameras that alert... I like them, I know you're there before the knock... picks you up coming in the driveway.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I have cameras that alert... I like them, I know you're there before the knock... picks you up coming in the driveway.

I hate to admit that our cameras suck;I normally just let Diesel bark and snarl at the door; Anyone that sticks around after hearing him is worth answering the door with a harmless warm welcome.I still practice southern hospitality

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I have cameras that alert... I like them, I know you're there before the knock... picks you up coming in the driveway.

By the way, Thanks for your service

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

By the way, Thanks for your service

Thank you for saying that... I see your name is Buffalo Soldier... any reference to the 10th CAV?

I was in Troop D 10th CAV in the early 80's.

 

[Bodhisattva]

If they announce they have a warrant... unless you want to buy a new door, I suggest you open the door.

Announcing is part of the identifying process, which can have a legal impact on the situation, as demonstrated by the incident being discussed.

A citizen has the right to demand to see the warrant, be it a search warrant or arrest warrant. Many folks don’t. I suspect there are many arrests that are without a warrant in hand (or crime witnessed).
As for taking down doors, there may be legal implications for that as well, depending on the facts and circumstances for that particular incident.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

No relation to the 10th Calvary, but I'm pretty sure that technically qualifies you as a Buffalo Soldier; Probably around the time I was born

 

[Rational Mind]

If my posts, which are an attempt to discuss, clarify, educate, and explain leave you with that conclusion, I can't help it.

As a career LE guy, I've always been neutral in my discussions here and on other boards. I'm not out to defend poor police conduct, rather, provide an insight as to what twenty-five years of working the road has taught me about human interactions.

You've always seemed fair in the replies to these type of discussions. The current state of our Country leaves you in a dilemma. Do you retire, take your pension, hunt, fish, teach your classes ? or continue in your career that you've devoted so much of your life to and be demonized by the media and public due to the actions of others ? As I stated in another thread, I couldn't have been prouder the day my niece became a cop and I couldn't have been happier the day she resigned. I don't envy any law enforcement officer right now.

 

[Snake-Eyes]

WRONG HOUSE.
WRONG HOUSE.
WRONG HOUSE.
WRONG HOUSE.
WRONG HOUSE.

And the “best answer” is “Don’t Answer the Door”.


Some say don’t answer it AT ALL.
Others say don’t answer it ARMED.


Personally, I would’ve been in range of the door WITH MY GUN. And if some poor SOB with shitty intel actually broke through the door, I would’ve shot him in the damn face. I don’t give A SHIT what they yell or say or wear. Why?
Because:
WRONG HOUSE.
WRONG HOUSE.
WRONG HOUSE.
WRONG HOUSE.
WRONG HOUSE.


Would anyone feel sorry for me that I would’ve shot a LEO with shitty intel?
Would my investigation take multiple state agencies to cross check? Would I be on paid leave while it all happened?


These are the same clown-shoes deputies who shoot at acorns, right?


Get educated on Force-on-Force all you want. The bottom line is the deputy is the “armed professional” in the equation and instigated that event.

This is on him.

I side with the Airman.
What a damn tragic loss.