Why carry permit as condition of sale?

[Kruegerhouse]

It's not a question of exercising "liberty". It's about people that believe in law and order? Not just the laws they agree with but ALL laws. You don't like the law, change it. The law is; green light go, red light stop. Think of the ciaos if people only obeyed traffic lights when they agreed with them. The law is; felons can't legally own a firearm, ever? Why, that's right, they have shown themselves to be irresponsible and criminals that have a high probability to use a firearm in the commission of another crime. Unlike people that believe in law and order and, and BTW the 2A . I'm not knowingly going to put myself in a position to break a law by selling to someone not willing to take that burden off of me and place it where it belongs, on themselves. It's the reason the term "smash and grab" exists. It's the newest media attempt to control the message and dialog. It's stealing and it's a crime. It's called covering all your bases in the event the weapon you sold is recovered at a crime scene. It has your name on it by virtue of you being the original purchaser with a 4473 as documentation. For those of us that don't want to be hassled unnecessarily it's a way to show all possible precautions were taken to sell to a legal individual. But isn't a bill of sale filled out for a similar reason?

I think you have missed the point.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Ive known someone that was a non felon and had a CCW and was stopped at a local gun shop from buying a gun.

Long story made short... He was a by stander in someone elses domestic issue he got jammed up with all kind of mystery fake trumped up charges by the police. Nothing ever came of anything and he was never charged with anything but had a hell of a time and had to visit the court house to get stuff removed so he could pass a background check again. I beleive it took just over a year to resolve. They never took his permit away and never had a court date for anything but some how the system had him flagged as a no go.

Be careful of the "system" its not designed with innocent till proven guilty these days and the cops are not here to "help" you.

Your "friend" lied to you.

You don't get "jammed up with all kinds of mystery fake trumped up charges" and then "he was never charged with anything" and then "had a hell of a time and had to visit the court house to get stuff removed...".

Sorry my man, that's not how it works.

Now, speaking as a guy with 25 plus years on the job, the latter part about cops not being there to help you, holds some truth depending on where you live.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

But yet we judge someone for asking a question

OP didn't ask a question... he made an inference.

 

[BowChamp]

Correct. Must be convicted to fail a background. Have all the charges in the world and no issue.

I hear you!! LOL!!!

The difference between alot of free men and convicts is nothing more than paperwork.

 

[Dan1612]

As far as the liability clarification. If you privately sell to someone who would not otherwise have been able to purchase a firearm, without asking any questions, and they go commit some heinous act with it, you can bet you’ll at least be on a subpoena if not called to testify, or could even be charged with a felony. Negligence is defined across the board as “knew or should have known.” If you’re confident you can prove otherwise and you just want to find a lawyer’s baby mama fund, be my guest.
To me, ABSOLUTELY NOT worth it.

 

[SAWMAN]

BS !! Charged with what "felony". --- SAWMAN

 

[Dan1612]

BS !! Charged with what "felony". --- SAWMAN

Sorry for the delay, it needed a couple of extra taps to bypass the ignore settings.
Here you go:
Second degree in the particular case, but I’m sure it could fit others as may be seen fit in a specific situation.

“Under Florida Statute §782.07, manslaughter is the killing of another person through your actions, procurement, or culpable negligence without any lawful justification, like self-defense.”

You may need to look up “procurement.” Use the copy function, if you can manage, it to copy it directly to make sure you spell it correctly.
Unlike charm, we know spelling is not your strong suit, Sir. And I remind you if you ever knew, that in the eyes of the court, negligence is defined as knew or should have known. Seems to fit the topic all too well in my opinion.
But just like making unlicensed class III items, it’s just not worth it, unless one REALLY wants to make a stand about “muh rites.”

 

[John B.]

I know for a 100% fact of someone getting fucked by the ATF on this forum.

Felony charges. Ended up doing 10 months at Saufley, and can never own a gun again.
Sold to someone who was a convicted felon. He did not ask, and the guy got popped a few weeks later. Now, granted... he told the ATF to suck it, and they made an example out of him...

Over 200 of his guns were seized when they raided his home. Out 10s of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

It can happen.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

 

[Dan1612]

^ THIS!!!
And that’s just him getting popped. For a second, just imagine if the guy had committed for instance, an act of terrorism…

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

I know for a 100% fact of someone getting fucked by the ATF on this forum.

Felony charges. Ended up doing 10 months at Saufley, and can never own a gun again.
Sold to someone who was a convicted felon. He did not ask, and the guy got popped a few weeks later. Now, granted... he told the ATF to suck it, and they made an example out of him...

Over 200 of his guns were seized when they raided his home. Out 10s of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

It can happen.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

I'm NOT calling you out, but details and facts are missing.

He may very well have got strung up by BATF but it sure wasn't for a single case of selling a gun to a felon unknowingly.

I'm assuming he was NOT an FFL holder... perhaps he was selling too many firearms and BATF decided he was "engaging in the business"? That would make more sense vs. a single sale to an unknown felon.

Again, I believe you when you say he got arrested and did some time... just not buying it was because a single sale to a felon.

 

[Dan1612]

I'm NOT calling you out, but details and facts are missing.

He may very well have got strung up by BATF but it sure wasn't for a single case of selling a gun to a felon unknowingly.

I'm assuming he was NOT an FFL holder... perhaps he was selling too many firearms and BATF decided he was "engaging in the business"? That would make more sense vs. a single sale to an unknown felon.

Again, I believe you when you say he got arrested and did some time... just not buying it was because a single sale to a felon.

I don’t know man, I could easily see someone getting hemmed up for trying to go all 2A justice warrior on the feds.

 

[G-rat]

Lets get this back on track fellas or I'll need to pull it down. This things WAY derailed...

 

[stage20]

Where did the OP go? I'd like to know if he has a permit.

 

[Dan1612]

Where did the OP go? I'd like to know if he has a permit.

He’s off walking west. Enjoying his popcorn, with the heat from this firebomb of a thread gently warming his back.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

I don’t know man, I could easily see someone getting hemmed up for trying to go all 2A justice warrior on the feds.

Federal prosecutorial interest, resources and manpower for such an incident is thin if nonexistent.

DELETED INFO

Much bigger fish to fry. Simply does not jive with my experiences dealing with the alphabet agencies.

 

[Az-Vic]

I have neither the authority, nor the desire to ask probing questions when I make a firearms sale/purchase. It is no different than if I were selling a chainsaw or a doublejack hammer, one citizen selling/buying an item from another citizen. When I make a sale, more than one guy has reached for his wallet to show ID, an I always wave him off, explaining it's none of my business, all Im interested in is if he chooses to buy my firearm or not.
I will qualify my stance by saying I always use my instinct when meeting to sell/buy, your gut will tell you if something seems askew, and that has only happened once in 45 years of serious buying/selling, where I just didn't feel right, and told the guy I showed up just to let him know I had all ready sold the firearm.

 

[FrankT]

If they can Jam you up some of them will, be safe out there

 

[Kruegerhouse]

Thanks for the discussion, guys.

Based on replies, there seems to be some confusion.

Nothing I have said suggests that you don’t have the right to sell to whomever you want, or can’t make whatever conditions that you want. Not trying to suggest either one.

A CCW IS a 2A infringement. If you don’t believe that, then that’s a whole ‘nother discussion.

So back to my point; your right to require it for sales not withstanding, it doesn’t change the fact that you are requiring someone to comply with a 2A infringement in order to purchase a firearm. Again, that is your choice and your right. Outside of all the mental gymnastics, it doesn’t change the fact that condition is counter intuitive to the 2A. Also, if permit-less carry would ever come to Florida, the requirement to possess a permit….well, you see where that goes.

For the record, this requirement by someone has not ever been an issue for me personally. Not an issue of being butt-hurt. Just having a discussing on a forum relevant issue.

Thanks again. Just exercising the brain.

 

[Kruegerhouse]

If I don’t reply quick enough it must be my bad character or faulty argument. Haha.

Not sure how my permit status is relevant to the discussion.

 

[Dan1612]

ALL gun laws are a 2A infringement…
However, every time I go into jail, I’m reminded that I would really rather not be in one for a moment longer than absolutely necessary. Occupationally or otherwise.
So, I choose to follow the law and cover my ass in all aspects of my life.
Regardless, your permit status is very relevant as it’s the subject of your thread. You’ve already let us know you don’t have one, which is fine, but personally, I wouldn’t sell to you without an FFL, but I’m sure that’s an infringement on you as well.