Thermal Questions

[Pudge]

Looking for some advice about jumping into the thermal world. I have been debating between a stand-alone sight or a clip-on. As of now, I am planning on putting whatever I get on a Ruger American in 300 blackout and only plan on shooting suppressed with subsonic ammo. I know with this I am realistically only looking at being able to engage out to 200 yds but want to make sure that I can detect much further out and have the clarity if I do want to transfer onto a .308 AR-10 later. I'd like to stay under $4k and if possible, under $3k.

What thermal optics are you guys using and in what role? What are the pros and cons of stand-alone versus clip-on? Are there certain ones to stay away from? Any other helpful information on the topic? Thank you in advance for your help.

 

[JWlineman]

@Chris1199

 

[DustyDog]

Not sold on clip-ons, and had some objections to them that I just can't recall right now. But below is my dream scope, the top-of-the-line AGM Rattler. They make several lesser units that would be fine for progressively shorter ranges (as low as $999 for the TS19 256, which I wouldn't recommend... probably great out to 50 yards, with a 100-yard practical limit : ) Kenzie's used to give 10% off your first order if you sign up to their e-mail list, but I'm not sure if that's still going on.


https://www.kenziesoptics.com/product/agm-rattler-ts50-640-thermal-imaging-scope/

 

[RHINOWSO]

The cheaper units have a lower 'refresh rate', ie how fast the image you are displayed updates. Some are around 25-30Hz. I wouldn't buy a thermal with less than 50Hz.

I have an older Pulsar on a 10/22 and a 384 AGM Ratler Clip on unit. Both have been fine. If it's a dedicated thermal rig, a dedicated thermal scope is better. If you want to keep the current optic, a clip on is a nice option as well.

Most Thermal Scopes have multiple 'zero' settings - since it's essentially a computer, assuming you have a quality mount for it, you can have Zero 1 - 2 - 3 set for different rifles, or set for different cartridges. On my 10/22, I have Zero 1 for subsonic ammo, Zero 2 for standards, 3 for high velocity 22LRs. On a centerfire rifle, hunting more than pests, I would likely still confirm zero after changing but on the 22 it's been fine but of course it's a short ranged weapon.

 

[kylo1597]

I just went through this and spent too much time researching, ended up with a pulsar talion xg35. Check out the videos, it’s a pretty damn good thermal for the money. And quick change rechargeable batteries.

If you need help deciding, call the guys at outdoor legacy gear, they have reviewed pretty much all of the thermals and use them heavily. They helped me decide.

FWIW i put mine on a dedicated .300blk upper shooting 110gr supers. It’s great!

 

[DustyDog]

I just went through this and spent too much time researching, ended up with a pulsar talion xg35. Check out the videos, it’s a pretty damn good thermal for the money. And quick change rechargeable batteries.

If you need help deciding, call the guys at outdoor legacy gear, they have reviewed pretty much all of the thermals and use them heavily. They helped me decide.

FWIW i put mine on a dedicated .300blk upper shooting 110gr supers. It’s great!

Yep... I don't like anything with integrated batteries, and actually prefer disposable batteries, since you can keep a sufficient quantity to make it as far as you'd want to go in a SHTF situation. I guess some can use either/or rechargeable or disposable, and that would be ideal.

 

[Daezee]

1) Cannot emphasize strongly enough NOT to buy with integrated batteries that you cannot change yourself...been there.

2) Cannot recommend UTAC32 clip on...been there...mine didn't hold clip on alignment. As a stand alone it was OK and I still use it for hand held scanning.

3) FLIR stopped supporting all civilian thermal and will not repair them (see #1 above) so don't buy a used FLIR unless it's free or nearly so. I rigged up my FLIR with an external battery so I can still use it.

4) Buy your CR123A batteries in bulk...MUCH cheaper that way.

5) Each will have its own base magnification...don't get one with a minimum magnification over 3x unless you'll only be shooting at longer distances as it will have a narrow field of view for closer distances.

6) Thermal has come a long way since I started into it.

 

[Pudge]

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I have been leaning pretty hard towards the AGM Rattler TS35-384 or the TS35-640. I'm going to assume if I can afford it the TS35-640 would be worth the extra money?

 

[DustyDog]

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I have been leaning pretty hard towards the AGM Rattler TS35-384 or the TS35-640. I'm going to assume if I can afford it the TS35-640 would be worth the extra money?

I would say yes, or you'll be regretting not spending the few more bucks for nearly double the thermal resolution : )

 

[FrankT]

sub 300, so you are limited to about 100yds, so any cheap thermal will do that..Pulsar is a good non china brand

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Thermal is one of those areas where once you get into it, you're hooked, so buy the MAX you can afford AND THEN SOME.

In the world of thermal, you do get what you pay for, no free rides, no free lunches. Lots of people look to upgrade quickly once they experience the world of thermal.

I'm using a Trijicon IR-Hunter MK II 35mm. It was at the higher end of the cost scale when I got it and I have zero regrets BUT I do night hunt a lot so the cost was worth it. I'd like a second unit, been wanting one for a couple years now, as mentioned, some improvements have been made and the costs have come down some.

Pulsar was a disappointment for me as it would not hold zero... while they claim to have fixed the issue in the Trail series, others have still posted issues.

I like the base magnification to be in the 1.5-3 range as I scan with the unit vs. a stand alone thermal scanner. To those who say that's dangerous as you might flag someone while scanning... I say good, that means you're trespassing and getting arrested just like the dozen or so I've already caught.

 

[DustyDog]

Oops! Forgot to mention re: my Rattler TS25-384... totally happy with it, just a couple of things to note:

1. Check for firmware updates if you get one (probably applies to any manufacturer). Mine had the 1st gen. firmware from the factory, and when I checked, several generations newer were available. Got some better reticles, minor quirks resolved, and the image quality even seemed to improve. Note that the Menu may have even changed a bit, so you'll have to read the notes and figure out any variances from the original operating instructions.

2. Took me a while to notice, but the reaction of the reticle to adjustments is reversed from one axis to the other. Since I never had to move the reticle more than 4 "clicks" from dead-center on either axis (and y is usually around +2, though I believe I am using a 20 MOA rail : ), I didn't pick up on this right away. But here's what I concluded is happening (maybe I'm just crazy... regardless, I never contacted the factory regarding my observations):

Moving the x value positive moves the reticle in the POSITIVE direction, and thus the point of impact moves in the NEGATIVE direction (I.e., POI moves LEFT/NEGATIVE on the axis) Moving the y value positive moves the reticle in the NEGATIVE direction, and thus the point of impact moves in the POSITIVE direction (i.e., the POI moves UPWARD/POSITIVE on the axis)

No doubt there are newer firmwares that may have resolved this... haven't checked for a while. May not even be an issue on yours when you get it, but just note that it's a possibility. I made notes in my manual so I could keep it straight. I really should talk to the factory just to make sure I'm not losing it : )

 

[DustyDog]

I like the base magnification to be in the 1.5-3 range as I scan with the unit vs. a stand alone thermal scanner. To those who say that's dangerous as you might flag someone while scanning... I say good, that means you're trespassing and getting arrested just like the dozen or so I've already caught.

Yep... if I win the lottery, I will most certainly get a hand-held so I don't necessarily have to wave my rifle around to scan... this would be especially important if you're hunting with someone else, for example.

But if it's a defensive situation (maybe even against hogs!), the last thing you want is a hand-held in one hand and a rifle in the other! The rifle will be scanning in that situation.

Kinda like when people (like Ayoob) say that one disadvantage of having a weapon mounted light on your defensive handgun is that you have to point it at someone to identify them, which can constitute "aggravated assault" or whatever they call it (you should know : ) Well, legally, yes, but I'll be damned if I'm clearing my house with a pistol in one hand and light in the other! If you're in the house, prepare to get flagged! : )

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Yep... if I win the lottery, I will most certainly get a hand-held so I don't necessarily have to wave my rifle around to scan... this would be especially important if you're hunting with someone else, for example.

But if it's a defensive situation (maybe even against hogs!), the last thing you want is a hand-held in one hand and a rifle in the other! The rifle will be scanning in that situation.

Kinda like when people (like Ayoob) say that one disadvantage of having a weapon mounted light on your defensive handgun is that you have to point it at someone to identify them, which can constitute "aggravated assault" or whatever they call it (you should know : ) Well, legally, yes, but I'll be damned if I'm clearing my house with a pistol in one hand and light in the other! If you're in the house, prepare to get flagged! : )

I know full well Mass's background and "opinion" on the topic of flagging, I've heard it many times before... he is simply wrong in the context being discussed.

Agg Assault requires intent. Scanning and flagging during a search or sporting activity per se does not constitute criminal intent.

If you confront a trespasser on your property or in your home, do you not think you don't have a right to initially confront them, including having a firearm pointed at them or in their direction?

If that were the case, EVERY flagging incident in a class or competition would constitute a criminal violation. I wish he would stop making blanket statements to that effect.

784.011 Assault.—
(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
784.021 Aggravated assault.—
(1) An “aggravated assault” is an assault:
(a) With a deadly weapon without intent to kill; or
(b) With an intent to commit a felony.

 

[DustyDog]

I know full well Mass's background and "opinion" on the topic of flagging, I've heard it many times before... he is simply wrong in the context being discussed.

Agg Assault requires intent. Scanning and flagging during a search or sporting activity per se does not constitute criminal intent.

If you confront a trespasser on your property or in your home, do you not think you don't have a right to initially confront them, including having a firearm pointed at them or in their direction?

If that were the case, EVERY flagging incident in a class or competition would constitute a criminal violation. I wish he would stop making blanket statements to that effect.

784.011 Assault.—
(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
784.021 Aggravated assault.—
(1) An “aggravated assault” is an assault:
(a) With a deadly weapon without intent to kill; or
(b) With an intent to commit a felony.

Yep... here's the vid where he says all this. Now I will agree: You might well be charged with assault, depending on the jurisdiction... and possibly even be convicted. Sad but true, the lawful self-defender and law enforcement are routinely raked over the coals with no justification. But I'm not going to place myself at a disadvantage based on that fact alone. The last thing you want to be thinking about when your life is on the line is "But what do the statutes say?" : )

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Yep... here's the vid where he says all this. Now I will agree: You might well be charged with assault, depending on the jurisdiction... and possibly even be convicted. Sad but true, the lawful self-defender and law enforcement are routinely raked over the coals with no justification. But I'm not going to place myself at a disadvantage based on that fact alone. The last thing you want to be thinking about when your life is on the line is "But what do the statutes say?" : )

Anyone living in an area where they believe the political climate is as such they won't get a fair investigation concerning a SD shooting/encounter, should seriously consider moving. It is in fact a serious and legitimate concern.

Here in central FL where I live, I have no doubt I will get a fair evaluation, not because I'm LE, but because the SAO in our area is realistic, fair, and follows the spirit of the law. Will it stay that way long term? I don't know.

I see SD encounters play out in my line of work... seeing various incidents unfold and seeing the investigative process involving the SAO makes me feel comfortable I'll get a fair an impartial shake WHERE I LIVE.

Other places in the state and country, not so much.

 

[DustyDog]

Anyone living in an area where they believe the political climate is as such they won't get a fair investigation concerning a SD shooting/encounter, should seriously consider moving. It is in fact a serious and legitimate concern.

Here in central FL where I live, I have no doubt I will get a fair evaluation, not because I'm LE, but because the SAO in our area is realistic, fair, and follows the spirit of the law. Will it stay that way long term? I don't know.

I see SD encounters play out in my line of work... seeing various incidents unfold and seeing the investigative process involving the SAO makes me feel comfortable I'll get a fair an impartial shake WHERE I LIVE.

Other places in the state and country, not so much.

Exactly. Sometimes, though, it seems there are even greener pastures than Florida, though the trend is in the wrong direction almost everywhere (look at what happened in the Arbery case in Southern Georgia!). Even in Panama City, there is a writer for the local paper who is a purebred Marxist propagandist.

But I learned long ago that moving doesn't necessarily solve problems... in fact, it can be a major waste of time and effort. I had already lived in Florida (born there), South Carolina (at one month old), and California before I entered the first grade, and was in my fifth different school in three different states... Florida, Texas, and Alabama, with a summer in Arkansas... by the time I hit fifth grade : )

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

Exactly. Sometimes, though, it seems there are even greener pastures than Florida, though the trend is in the wrong direction almost everywhere (look at what happened in the Arbery case in Southern Georgia!).

Poor choice for an example... those guys screwed the pooch.