Police raid wrong house, injure toddler, lots of questions about this SW

[Bowhntr6pt]

To much militarization of police forces. in the U.S., caused largely by the federal government. Hey but what do I know, only did it for 32 years. Some where along the line, somebody forgot about "PROTECT AND SERVE"

I disagree with your generalized statement.... "militarization of police force" isn't the real problem. In fact, it's an over-used worthless term that folks like to throw around. What in this situation was "military"?

The acquiring of hardware, military grade included, isn't the real problem... the responsible and necessary use of the hardware is the potential source of problems.

Like you, I can only assume, have been shot while in an armored vehicle. I've also used armored vehicles to successfully apprehend violent felons.

Thousands and thousands of agencies use "military grade hardware" every day w/o issue. Many cops have been killed as a result of not having adequate cover and/or attempting to rescue downed officers without the use of a protective type vehicle.

Most of the time when we see SNAFU's by LE it's not WHAT they were using, it's HOW or WHY they were using it. Like I mentioned... not all teams have good leadership and some can't police themselves.

Policing today is much different that it was thirty-two years ago, assuming you're recently retired, if not, more so going back in time to when you started. I started this business around 1996 and the job is night and day different on many aspects.

Just to be clear... My post above in no way means I believe the raid and tactics used were appropriate, I don't have detailed info so I won't speculate.

ETA- my gut feelings are 1) they had crap or non-existent intel; or 2) they had intel that suggested someone in the home knew and was helping the suspect hide stolen guns. The answer(s) to those questions and concerns, in part, lies within the Search Warrant Application and supporting Probable Cause Affidavit.

 

[FrommerStop]

I disagree with your generalized statement.... "militarization of police force" isn't the real problem. In fact, it's an over-used worthless term that folks like to throw around. What in this situation was "military"?

The acquiring of hardware, military grade included, isn't the real problem... the responsible and necessary use of the hardware is the potential source of problems.

Like you, I can only assume, have been shot while in an armored vehicle. I've also used armored vehicles to successfully apprehend violent felons.

Thousands and thousands of agencies use "military grade hardware" every day w/o issue. Many cops have been killed as a result of not having adequate cover and/or attempting to rescue downed officers without the use of a protective type vehicle.

Most of the time when we see SNAFU's by LE it's not WHAT they were using, it's HOW or WHY they were using it. Like I mentioned... not all teams have good leadership and some can't police themselves.

Policing today is much different that it was thirty-two years ago, assuming you're recently retired, if not, more so going back in time to when you started. I started this business around 1996 and the job is night and day different on many aspects.

Just to be clear... My post above in no way means I believe the raid and tactics used were appropriate, I don't have detailed info so I won't speculate.

ETA- my gut feelings are 1) they had crap or non-existent intel; or 2) they had intel that suggested someone in the home knew and was helping the suspect hide stolen guns. The answer(s) to those questions and concerns, in part, lies within the Search Warrant Application and supporting Probable Cause Affidavit.

I am not a cop, but-
Gun can not be flushed down the toilet as is the case with drugs and if there was contraband, likely a detailed search would be needed anyway.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

I am not a cop, but-
Gun can not be flushed down the toilet as is the case with drugs and if there was contraband, likely a detailed search would be needed anyway.

Like I've said before... not agreeing per se with the operation.

Speculating only on limited info, as a team Commander, we would have done things differently.

 

[Carl]

It’s a dangerous practice that could likely be avoided more often than not but the budget must be justified. Am I wrong?

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

It’s a dangerous practice that could likely be avoided more often than not but the budget must be justified. Am I wrong?

If you're referring to the tactic of performing a dynamic entry, yes, it absolutely is overused. No doubt about it.

Has nothing to do with the budget.

Dynamic entries were once the go-to tactic... there are better ways to accomplish the mission. True active shooter or hostage rescue being the exceptions.

The National Tactical Officers Association (NTOA) has established numerous professional standards concerning tactics and leadership. Unfortunately not all agencies and teams are on board.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

If the responded officers at Uvalde had a BearCat or MRAP with a ram, they could have breeched the classroom from the outside. I'm not 100% sure... but didn't that classroom have an external wall? I could be wrong... but the idea hold true just the same.

Having the training and/or courage to do so might be a different question.

I've personally drove and used a BeatCat ram to do that on a live operation (was a residence). Made one hell of a mess.

 

[FrommerStop]

If the responded officers at Uvalde had a BearCat or MRAP with a ram, they could have breeched the classroom from the outside. I'm not 100% sure... but didn't that classroom have an external wall? I could be wrong... but the idea hold true just the same.

Having the training and/or courage to do so might be a different question.

I've personally drove and used a BeatCat ram to do that on a live operation (was a residence). Made one hell of a mess.

They could have taken a single axle box truck and backed it through the wall where the windows were. Or any piece of equipment.
I am surprised that the former police chief (edit)is still sucking air since as I understand it the lack of action was his fault and he was in command.
If it(edit) was my kid(s) that got killed in that classroom I would be boiling mad.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

They could have taken a single axle box truck and backed it through the wall where the windows were. Or any piece of equipment.
I am surprised that the former police is still sucking air since as I understand it the lack of action was his fault and he was in command.
It was my kid(s) that got killed in that classroom I would be boiling mad.

Yep....

 

[bowona13]

I disagree with your generalized statement.... "militarization of police force" isn't the real problem. In fact, it's an over-used worthless term that folks like to throw around. What in this situation was "military"?

The acquiring of hardware, military grade included, isn't the real problem... the responsible and necessary use of the hardware is the potential source of problems.

Like you, I can only assume, have been shot while in an armored vehicle. I've also used armored vehicles to successfully apprehend violent felons.

Thousands and thousands of agencies use "military grade hardware" every day w/o issue. Many cops have been killed as a result of not having adequate cover and/or attempting to rescue downed officers without the use of a protective type vehicle.

Most of the time when we see SNAFU's by LE it's not WHAT they were using, it's HOW or WHY they were using it. Like I mentioned... not all teams have good leadership and some can't police themselves.

Policing today is much different that it was thirty-two years ago, assuming you're recently retired, if not, more so going back in time to when you started. I started this business around 1996 and the job is night and day different on many aspects.

Just to be clear... My post above in no way means I believe the raid and tactics used were appropriate, I don't have detailed info so I won't speculate.

ETA- my gut feelings are 1) they had crap or non-existent intel; or 2) they had intel that suggested someone in the home knew and was helping the suspect hide stolen guns. The answer(s) to those questions and concerns, in part, lies within the Search Warrant Application and supporting Probable Cause Affidavit.

I can agree with some of your statement, having gone from patrolman to tac/swat team leader to Chief of Police. These things like armored vehicles and specialized teams, have their time and place but not on every mission. There is no substitute for pre-mission Recon, Intel, Training and pre-mission briefing. Always Remember- "Piss Poor Preparation Leads to Piss Poor Performance" JMTCW

 

[FrommerStop]

I can agree with some of your statement, having gone from patrolman to tac/swat team leader to Chief of Police. These things like armored vehicles and specialized teams, have their time and place but not on every mission. There is no substitute for pre-mission Recon, Intel, Training and pre-mission briefing. Always Remember- "Piss Poor Preparation Leads to Piss Poor Performance" JMTCW

As you advance to the top your perspective will change compared to someone that has not. You have to see a very different picture as to how things should be done.

 

[Bowhntr6pt]

I can agree with some of your statement, having gone from patrolman to tac/swat team leader to Chief of Police. These things like armored vehicles and specialized teams, have their time and place but not on every mission. There is no substitute for pre-mission Recon, Intel, Training and pre-mission briefing. Always Remember- "Piss Poor Preparation Leads to Piss Poor Performance" JMTCW

The inability to change with the times, lack of self-policing, and maintaining the attitude "that's how we've always done it", compounds the problems.

Some agencies still use SWAT teams for just about everything... you're right... time and place plays a big part... those agencies will continue to make the news in a negative way.