Exactly, I've trained a lot of foreign conscripts and maybe one out of a hundred was worth the effort and then even that one was only mediocre at best.
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Never thoughts vets would say this!
- Thread starter Brandon_SPC
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Exactly, I've trained a lot of foreign conscripts and maybe one out of a hundred was worth the effort and then even that one was only mediocre at best.
In theory I like the idea. It works well for Switzerland but then again they don't send their kids into other countries to fight political wars. If we could do the same I think it wouldn't be so bad. That or some other form of civil service. Maybe make it a condition to be eligible for pell grants.
Does anyone else think it's a strange confluence of ideas when the same mind that abhors any form of government, on any level, that is in the slightest bit socialist yet advocates for forced conscription into a socialist institution like the military? I just find that thought provoking and think it would interesting to dig deeper into and see what it is people really believe versus what they think they believe including myself. The armed forces and the lifestyle of active duty is of a very socialist nature in many ways imo.
Does anyone else think it's a strange confluence of ideas when the same mind that abhors any form of government, on any level, that is in the slightest bit socialist yet advocates for forced conscription into a socialist institution like the military? I just find that thought provoking and think it would interesting to dig deeper into and see what it is people really believe versus what they think they believe including myself. The armed forces and the lifestyle of active duty is of a very socialist nature in many ways imo.
MAXman,I was a E5 in 3years and 4 months. 43250 Jet Engine Mechanic. Most everyone in the Jet Shop made E5 in there first hitch if they stayed out of trouble. As a matter of fact there were 5 of us that went to tech school that all made it at the same time.
Don't know about the Marines or Navy. If you look at some of the people walking around that I see they sure look to me like they are on there first hitch. I have even seen E6 that look like they can't be to far into there second hitch. Have to stop the next one I see how long it took them to make grade.
Don't know about the Marines or Navy. If you look at some of the people walking around that I see they sure look to me like they are on there first hitch. I have even seen E6 that look like they can't be to far into there second hitch. Have to stop the next one I see how long it took them to make grade.
Snow bird, pm inbound.
Fletch, I'm not about to say what I actually feel or believe, people wouldn't get through half the post before I got black balled from gcgf forever.
In 2009 I found out our company clerk was a memeber of a commune before he enlisted in the marine corps. I called bs, I told him he was way to motivated to have ever been a hippie. He dropped a gem of wisdom on my young mind, "it's a game, you have to play by the rules". I didn't write the constitution. But I've had the pursuit of happiness sold to me nearly every day of my life from age 9 to 22, and then again for the last three years.
I think a mandatory enlistment, no commission, across the entire board would cut down on the willingness of congressmen to send others children to fight for some tribal nomad 6th century society(since thier children would also be on the roster). I think the coffe shop and bar stool chest pounding war eagles would tone it down. Or mayb it would all get worse, who knows, I don't. Just a hunch.
Fletch, I'm not about to say what I actually feel or believe, people wouldn't get through half the post before I got black balled from gcgf forever.
In 2009 I found out our company clerk was a memeber of a commune before he enlisted in the marine corps. I called bs, I told him he was way to motivated to have ever been a hippie. He dropped a gem of wisdom on my young mind, "it's a game, you have to play by the rules". I didn't write the constitution. But I've had the pursuit of happiness sold to me nearly every day of my life from age 9 to 22, and then again for the last three years.
I think a mandatory enlistment, no commission, across the entire board would cut down on the willingness of congressmen to send others children to fight for some tribal nomad 6th century society(since thier children would also be on the roster). I think the coffe shop and bar stool chest pounding war eagles would tone it down. Or mayb it would all get worse, who knows, I don't. Just a hunch.
Maxman why would you want to help send the country to be socialist by wanting a mandatory service? If you made it mandatory that pride those bar stool chest pounding war eagles have will go away. No one will take pride in being in the military. What do you expect from testostetestosterone filled guys. It is the same way with sports to now just the military. Ever been to a college party? Or a bar near a college samething. Why wouldn't you want to try and support the constitution?
Say that past what would stop our government from being say how China use to be where they pick your life for you. Wether you would be in the military, a tradesman, cop, teacher etc. Would you want them picking your way of life?
Say that past what would stop our government from being say how China use to be where they pick your life for you. Wether you would be in the military, a tradesman, cop, teacher etc. Would you want them picking your way of life?
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HughJoergan
Wiener Connoisseur
B, thats the kind of shit that pushes things across the line. We're all here to discuss and debate. It's when we start pushing our ideas and misconceptions on others that it becomes bullshit. We can all agree and disagree as we choose without resorting to belittlement and exxageration.
And Max Semper FI brother!
Would you say Switzerland, Sweden or Israel are a stones throw away from china in terms of the socialist scale? These are just the three off the top of my head. I see what you guys are saying and even agree with you, and maybe at heart I'm actually a pinko commie speaker box. Ideologically I'm a huge fan of both Jesus and what I know of marx(is that even possible?) practically the closer to libertarian the better. I understand it doesn't make sense, but to me the idea of a "conservative" "right wing" person say that carpet bombing an entire country because they don't agree with us, or murdering sexual offenders, also doesn't make sense. I'm a contradiction. But I don't think I'm goo to change anyone's mind and I hope you guys don't worry to much for my political soul.
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way ashamed of my service, nor do I regret it. However whatever pride, self confidence or self worth I posses I did not get from Parris island, the marine corps title or a combat tour.
What I learned in the military was actually personal and professional accountability and responsibility. Things this country is in dire need of a lesson. I also learned that death and misery and anarchy is a constant reality and no amount of elections or social contracts or luck can protect us from it. That's another lesson we need to learn, there's way to many people with their face in the phone on the road and the mass acceptance that college is for experimenting with alcohol and drugs for me to believe our society understands the finality and totality of death.
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way ashamed of my service, nor do I regret it. However whatever pride, self confidence or self worth I posses I did not get from Parris island, the marine corps title or a combat tour.
What I learned in the military was actually personal and professional accountability and responsibility. Things this country is in dire need of a lesson. I also learned that death and misery and anarchy is a constant reality and no amount of elections or social contracts or luck can protect us from it. That's another lesson we need to learn, there's way to many people with their face in the phone on the road and the mass acceptance that college is for experimenting with alcohol and drugs for me to believe our society understands the finality and totality of death.
I am not pushing any ideas I was asking questions. I recited what was stated and asking questions for clarification. He posted his views out for everyone to see I was a tad confused. Hence all the questions. I think my questions might have pushed you a little. Maxman respectfully responded and that is all I was looking for.
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Semper fi Hugh,
No harm no foul to me Brandon . I know my views on this are a little extreme and we can all agree to disagree.
It's that whole duality of man..... Look I'm anti abortion, but pro choice. And anti Capitol punishment. Ideologically I can't see why we can't cooperate, work together, help each other pull the load, sing dance Friday nights, fish Saturdays and sing on Sunday.
Practically speaking, I want to be left alone, stop trying to sell me things, a country run by lawyers is a ship headed for the rocks. Like fletch points out a lot of us have contridicting positions and views, and I think a whole lot of people just toe the party line and say what's expected of them. I think with this issue, a whole lot of guys who had positive experiences in the military are going to think this is a good idea. Maybe that's where I fall into.
But if you think that I, or yourself, or in all probability anyone on this board, has anything to do with this countries spiral into socialism, I will take exception. The only time a federal representative ever asked me anything, he quit listening and his eyes glazed over before I answered.
No harm no foul to me Brandon . I know my views on this are a little extreme and we can all agree to disagree.
It's that whole duality of man..... Look I'm anti abortion, but pro choice. And anti Capitol punishment. Ideologically I can't see why we can't cooperate, work together, help each other pull the load, sing dance Friday nights, fish Saturdays and sing on Sunday.
Practically speaking, I want to be left alone, stop trying to sell me things, a country run by lawyers is a ship headed for the rocks. Like fletch points out a lot of us have contridicting positions and views, and I think a whole lot of people just toe the party line and say what's expected of them. I think with this issue, a whole lot of guys who had positive experiences in the military are going to think this is a good idea. Maybe that's where I fall into.
But if you think that I, or yourself, or in all probability anyone on this board, has anything to do with this countries spiral into socialism, I will take exception. The only time a federal representative ever asked me anything, he quit listening and his eyes glazed over before I answered.
Seanpcola
Moderator
As someone who never served but now regrets the decision I'll put in my .02.
Mandatory service may be "socialistic" but incentivicing it better than its been done previously might be a good idea.
The reason I didn't join was that I saw no benefit for me personally, I now see that train of thought as selfish. It didn't occur to me to "pay it forward" to my country. I also saw friends going in, hating it and getting out ASAP. I didn't become eligible for enlistment until Vietnam Nam was all but over.
As an outside observer I can tell the difference between someone that served and someone that didn't. Former military, whether having seen actual combat or just sat at a desk, appear to me to have more discipline and confidence, better decision making skills and a sense of direction.
I do know several people that were drafted and most of them tell me that in hindsight it was the best thing that ever happened to them.
My very dear Friend George is an example. He's black and was coming of age in the very early 60's. He was turning thug, doing petty street crime shit, lazy, no direction, in his words (these are HIS words) "I was on the path to being a real n*****". He comes home to the letter and next thing you know he's in the jungle, carrying a rifle and getting shot at, a LOT. When his reenlistment time came up he thought long and hard and decided to stay because he loved the order of things. He retired as a highly decorated Sargent Major and is one of the best people I know. He will tell anyone that if that had not occurred he would most likely been dead or in jail within 5 years.
No, maybe not mandatory but should be highly encouraged somehow.
Final note: I can't think of anyone that I know that regrets having served but i do know a lot that regret not doing it.
Mandatory service may be "socialistic" but incentivicing it better than its been done previously might be a good idea.
The reason I didn't join was that I saw no benefit for me personally, I now see that train of thought as selfish. It didn't occur to me to "pay it forward" to my country. I also saw friends going in, hating it and getting out ASAP. I didn't become eligible for enlistment until Vietnam Nam was all but over.
As an outside observer I can tell the difference between someone that served and someone that didn't. Former military, whether having seen actual combat or just sat at a desk, appear to me to have more discipline and confidence, better decision making skills and a sense of direction.
I do know several people that were drafted and most of them tell me that in hindsight it was the best thing that ever happened to them.
My very dear Friend George is an example. He's black and was coming of age in the very early 60's. He was turning thug, doing petty street crime shit, lazy, no direction, in his words (these are HIS words) "I was on the path to being a real n*****". He comes home to the letter and next thing you know he's in the jungle, carrying a rifle and getting shot at, a LOT. When his reenlistment time came up he thought long and hard and decided to stay because he loved the order of things. He retired as a highly decorated Sargent Major and is one of the best people I know. He will tell anyone that if that had not occurred he would most likely been dead or in jail within 5 years.
No, maybe not mandatory but should be highly encouraged somehow.
Final note: I can't think of anyone that I know that regrets having served but i do know a lot that regret not doing it.
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100% agree with better incentives/encouragement to join and stay in.
I don't regret not joining but I sure as hell regret not making it a career. I wish someone had been there to knock me in the head with a 2x4 and knock some sense into me when it came time to re-up.
I know a lot of people like that, my best friend is one. We enlisted together and he got out at the end of his enlistment, I stayed. He went back to MI and is working 50 hours in a factory, I retired in 2011 and haven't worked 50 hours this year. I'm not rich or even "well off" (whatever that is), but that retirement check gives me the freedom to be more selective on the work I do or don't do if I feel like some time off like the last 16 months have been.
June 28th 2004 until June 28th 2015. 11 years of my beloved corps. Am I glad I joined, yes. Am I glad I served, yes. Am I glad I did so with people that wanted to be there with me, yes. My opinion of mandatory enlistment is that If you don't want to be there don't be. If the guns go off you want the people with you to be with you because they want to be not hating the fact they were forced to be. This is just my opinion.
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wildrider666
Master
YES. You consume the freedom, liberties and benifits of living in this Country, then you should also bare what could be considered its most difficult burden. As far as all the B/S that the Draft is un-Constitutional, the issue was addressed by SCOTUS.
The Supreme Court unanimously upheld the constitutionality of the draft act in the*Selective Draft Law Cases*on January 7, 1918. The decision said the Constitution gave Congress the power to declare war and to raise and support armies. The Court, relying partly on*Vattel's*The Law of Nations, emphasized the principle of the reciprocal rights and duties of citizens:[16]
It may not be doubted that the very conception of a just government and its duty to the citizen includes the reciprocal obligation of the citizen to render military service in case of need, and the right to compel it. To do more than state the proposition is absolutely unnecessary in view of the practical illustration afforded by the almost universal legislation to that effect now in force.
The Supreme Court unanimously upheld the constitutionality of the draft act in the*Selective Draft Law Cases*on January 7, 1918. The decision said the Constitution gave Congress the power to declare war and to raise and support armies. The Court, relying partly on*Vattel's*The Law of Nations, emphasized the principle of the reciprocal rights and duties of citizens:[16]
It may not be doubted that the very conception of a just government and its duty to the citizen includes the reciprocal obligation of the citizen to render military service in case of need, and the right to compel it. To do more than state the proposition is absolutely unnecessary in view of the practical illustration afforded by the almost universal legislation to that effect now in force.
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JBryan314
Master
The SCOTUS is not the final say in the matter, and if they rule in favor of the federal government having power the Constitution doesn't grant to it then they are wrong. I'm not sure when the SCOTUS became the branch of government free from checks and balances.
Read the 10th amendment, and then scan the rest of the document. You'll see that the federal government doesn't possess the right to uproot a free American from their life to force them into service. The fact that we think it works in other places is not relevant. The ends do not justify the means.
If the federal government can force you to serve them by fighting and killing other people, then please tell me what the federal government can NOT do. This is not rhetorical. I would like a simple response to that simple question. If someone is given the power to force you to fight and kill, then what power do they not have?
PS... Someone earlier (in March?) mentioned that a draft would bring skills and abilities that an all volunteer force is lacking... That's totally false. Our all volunteer force has the skills and abilities to accomplish anything. Shortcomings in our military performance would not be solved by bringing in a bunch of people who don't want to be there. It would be solved by politicians letting our military commanders do their jobs without constant political interference.
We have the most powerful and capable military on the planet, and we still have people who'd rather we do things like foreign countries. Such as conscription.
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Not to be a smart ass, but to answer you questions what power the federal goverment doesn't have....
It's simple. They can do anything.
Can they force you to fight and kill? Yes.
Can they force you to sell your land? Yes.
Can they force you to spend your money? Yes.
What else is there? I guess they can't tell you to have/not have children. Seriously, not trying to stir up shit. That's honestly how I see things.
It's simple. They can do anything.
Can they force you to fight and kill? Yes.
Can they force you to sell your land? Yes.
Can they force you to spend your money? Yes.
What else is there? I guess they can't tell you to have/not have children. Seriously, not trying to stir up shit. That's honestly how I see things.
wildrider666
Master
Your arguments based on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights HAVE ALL BEEN ADDRESSED IN THE COURTS. Key Cases have been decided as recently as the 70s. SCOTUS "IS" the checks and balances For the other two branches of Gov. You may not like it, but its the Law. There is only one draft issue to be resolved: will females be drafted? They want equality, they want positions in all military occupations and they have served in combat.
All comments referencing other "What if the Gov does this or that" are moot to this issue. Those "What ifs" would be addressed IF they arise.
PLEASE do some research. SCOTUS Rules the Constitution DOES give the Gov the power to raise a standing army to include conscripting for Mandatory service in war and peace. Unless you change the EXISTING LAW, opposing views are just squeaky wheels.
Law abiding citizens will register and serve (per the Law) if called. Cowards will refuse and go to jail or to another Country. I would push for their citizenship to be stripped as they are unworthy of the title. Some rally around the term Militia in support of gun Rights then piss down their leg about the possibility of really having to serve! To suckle the tit of freedom and refuse to serve when called is Patriotic Welfare, people want someone else to bare the expense of their freedoms.
For those who get drafted and don't pull their load there are a dozen levels of leadership to Courts Martial to handle that. Leave the Service with a bad discharge and they loose several of those precious Rights including gun ownership.
My comments are attached to the quote in rebuttle but not directed at the character of any specific person(s).
Semper Fi,
WR
Lottery Winner #138, Pvt out of Boot and Sgt (E5) @ 25 months TIS,
CWO4 USMC Ret.
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