Modified creedmoor for the TAC-14

[FrommerStop]

Quote Originally Posted by SAWMAN View Post
"Pistol grip . . . from the hip".
Possibly should have been put under the "military sayings" thread but the above just made me think of it.
IMO and some others from awhile back,pistol grip shotguns should be fired from the hip only. Full buttdtock from eye level even if you choose not to use the sights or even beed. ---SAWMAN

Because sights are a design flaw.

This leads to an important point in that relative to pistol grip shotguns. A shotgun of any barrel length with a full length buttstock should point quite from the shoulder and with practice shoulder stock guns in my personal experience at close range can be used to hit things. I have not used a pistol grip shotgun, but it seems that it needs to be aimed for any distance past 8 ft. There people are putting putting RMRs on them.
I do not have a pistol grip shotgun, but they are intriguing. I like compact guns and for now I am doing the AR pistol thing.

 

[donr101395]

This leads to an important point in that relative to pistol grip shotguns. A shotgun of any barrel length with a full length buttstock should point quite from the shoulder and with practice shoulder stock guns in my personal experience at close range can be used to hit things. I have not used a pistol grip shotgun, but it seems that it needs to be aimed for any distance past 8 ft. There people are putting putting RMRs on them.
I do not have a pistol grip shotgun, but they are intriguing. I like compact guns and for now I am doing the AR pistol thing.

That's the problem so many think "you can't miss with a shotgun just point it in the direction and pull the trigger." I've seen plenty of people miss and now you're missing with 8 projectiles of buckshot.
I have both SBS full stock shotguns and pistol grip firearms, I've had both since before you could buy one from the factory. I don't see a reason to not use the sights for everything except contact distance.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[donr101395]

I’m curious of your opinion on if pistol grip only shotguns have any defensive or professional use?


Deadly Threat Defense LLC
Firearms Training near Pensacola, FL

I think they have a niche use, but overall IMO a carbine or pistol is better all around. I don't think I would choose a pistol grip only gun over one with a stock, but I also wouldn't choose a shotgun over a carbine 99.9% of the time.
For professional use for breaching and for defensive use it can absolutely be used at the expense of less rounds on board, considerably more recoil than a carbine or pistol and it's not as ergonomic as a pistol, carbine or full stock shotgun.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

 

[wildrider666]

I’m curious of your opinion on if pistol grip only shotguns have any defensive or professional use?
Deadly Threat Defense LLC
Firearms Training near Pensacola, FL

FWIW: PGO for "sighted fire" can be punishing (I wouldn't want shoot a box of shells that way). Movie prop, range toy that can be employed tactically but there are better options including a standard shotgun with 18 inch barrel. Shoulder Stock W/pistol grip is far superior to PGO and a standard shotgun: it greatly enhances sighted shooting positions and supports recoil mitigation much better. IMHO

I'm in the Carbine is mo better camp. I have a H&K/Benelli M3 I haven't put a live shell in for over 15Years.

 

[FrommerStop]

FWIW: PGO for "sighted fire" can be punishing (I wouldn't want shoot a box of shells that way). Movie prop, range toy that can be employed tactically but there are better options including a standard shotgun with 18 inch barrel. Shoulder Stock W/pistol grip is far superior to PGO and a standard shotgun: it greatly enhances sighted shooting positions and supports recoil mitigation much better. IMHO

I'm in the Carbine is mo better camp. I have a H&K/Benelli M3 I haven't put a live shell in for over 15Years.

Carbine vs shotgun likely deserves it own thread. Really distance related as to the better choice and also the shooting conditions. In the dark at under 35 yards and no NV it is the shotgun. At longer distances obviously the carbine is more effective.

 

[FLT]

I’ve had a Ithaca 37 loaded with number 1 buckshot by my bed for 40 or so years and didn’t feel unprepared. But I have been giving a 10 inch ar some thought , I’m thinking I might want to load it with Speer 75 grain gold dots to cut down on the chances of over penetration. I’ll ad that only my wife and I live in the house now and don’t plan on leaving the bed room that we sleep in to confront a burglar or a home invasion person. I intend to stay in the bedroom and call the sheriffs office. My game plan is to stop the bad guy if he/they try to breach the bed room door. Other than that I’ll let Leo’s handle it. In my case and game plan the main advantage that I see is more rounds immediately available if they were needed. Are there any negatives to the ar that I’m over looking?

 

[FrommerStop]

I’ve had a Ithaca 37 loaded with number 1 buckshot by my bed for 40 or so years and didn’t feel unprepared. But I have been giving a 10 inch ar some thought , I’m thinking I might want to load it with Speer 75 grain gold dots to cut down on the chances of over penetration. I’ll ad that only my wife and I live in the house now and don’t plan on leaving the bed room that we sleep in to confront a burglar or a home invasion person. I intend to stay in the bedroom and call the sheriffs office. My game plan is to stop the bad guy if he/they try to breach the bed room door. Other than that I’ll let Leo’s handle it. In my case and game plan the main advantage that I see is more rounds immediately available if they were needed. Are there any negatives to the ar that I’m over looking?

The Ten inch barrels are supposed to make a lot of noise. Also for 5.56 the velocity loss can significantly reduce its terminal effect. Most recommend a 300 blkout for the pistol length barrels.
Both the AR pistol and the shotgun will work.
I am playing around with a 7 inch barrel in 7.62x39. So far I have only tested fired it and had a problem of insufficient headspace. I changed out the bolt last night and it now freely chambers ammunition. I emailed BCA asking that they send me a replacement for the bolt. I will see if they stand behind their product or not. It seems to throw empties out in front of the gun so I will put in an H3 and see how well it preforms.

 

[wildrider666]

Drifting a bit wide from your OP but responding to your #57. M193 (military standard Ball 55gr 5.56 cartridge) generates a velocity around 2750 fps in a 10.5" barrel AR-15 pistol/SBR. This isn't much higher than the fragmentation velocity (2700+-). Since the bullet will be losing speed every moment after it leaves the barrel, we can figure out it's going to drop below the magic velocity threshold around 22 yards. That's not much of a range but still house clearing/repel boarders effective. With a 16 inch barreled Carbine, that cartridge velicoty is 3125+- and fragmentation range just over 110 yards. 10.5 Inch barreled ARs are noisy and concussive (flash can helps), they burn powder inefficiently (pressure post peak, duration limited by barrel length)= lost energy.

 

[donr101395]

Carbine vs shotgun likely deserves it own thread. Really distance related as to the better choice and also the shooting conditions. In the dark at under 35 yards and no NV it is the shotgun. At longer distances obviously the carbine is more effective.

I would absolutely and categorically disagree. A carbine will do anything a shotgun will do defensively and do it with more precision, less recoil and more ammo. It's also typically lighter weight and easier to mount a light on and manipulate the light. There is a reason that SWAT teams moved away from shotguns and subguns and started using carbines in rifle calibers. I
'm not discounting shotguns, they worked for many decades prior to modern carbines with modern ammo and modern training in their use. They will still work, they just typically aren't a better choice unless you're under some sort of overly restrictive laws.
But you're probably right, that is another thread.

 

[FrommerStop]

Drifting a bit wide from your OP but responding to your #57. M193 (military standard Ball 55gr 5.56 cartridge) generates a velocity around 2750 fps in a 10.5" barrel AR-15 pistol/SBR. This isn't much higher than the fragmentation velocity (2700+-). Since the bullet will be losing speed every moment after it leaves the barrel, we can figure out it's going to drop below the magic velocity threshold around 22 yards. That's not much of a range but still house clearing/repel boarders effective. With a 16 inch barreled Carbine, that cartridge velicoty is 3125+- and fragmentation range just over 110 yards. 10.5 Inch barreled ARs are noisy and concussive (flash can helps), they burn powder inefficiently (pressure post peak, duration limited by barrel length)= lost energy.

I did start op and do not care if after the original op is answer that we bunny trail. below is someones observed ballistics

Apr 13, 2014

#4

OP,
Here is MV data at 10 ft. from a 10" Colt 1x7 M4 LWT barrel with M4 can with several useful loads at approx. 80 degrees F. Mostly use M193 for practice, BHA MK 262 MOD 1 or 77gr. SMK handload for accuracy, and any of the 70gr. TSX loads for terminal performance. The 77gr. SMK loads yield best accuracy and the 70gr. TSX loads yield best terminal performance (both by very wide margins).

LC M193 55gr. FMJBT---------------------------------------------------: 2638 FPS
BHA MK 262 MOD 1 77gr. SMK OTM-----------------------------------: 2351 FPS
77gr. SMK over MAX listed 5.56MM NATO charge of TAC (handload): 2434 FPS
MK 318 MOD 0 62gr. SOST---------------------------------------------: 2496 FPS
SWA 5.56MM 70gr. TSX------------------------------------------------: 2456 FPS
5.56MM OPTIMIZED 70gr. Brown Tip----------------------------------: 2506 FPS
SSA 5.56MM 70gr. TSX-------------------------------------------------: 2575 FPS
70gr. TSX over MAX listed 5.56MM NATO charge of TAC (handload): 2543 FPS

Here are some recovered water-shot test bullets fired from 10ft. with 10" Colt: The MK 318 MOD 0 SOST fragmented quite nicely while the M193 yawed/flattened but did not frag. And the 70gr. TSX expanded to 0.48" across the petals while retaining 100% weight.

Thing is if you handload you likely can find bullets that will fragment at 2600 fps. Look for bullets intended for the .22 hornet velocities.

I really like the initial handling of a 7.62x39 7 inch + flashhidder and brace on an AR. It felt a lot like toy gun. With a say 15 to 20 round mag it should be a trim handling little piece. For proper bullet performance i likely need to handload.

for me when using a carbine penetration is needed if engaging a vehicle.

 

[wildrider666]

There's always variables and there is fragmentation potential below design velocity but as one drops so does the other.

 

[FrommerStop]

There's always variables and there is fragmentation potential below design velocity but as one drops so does the other.

View attachment 77713

The bullets in your second roll are breaking in half which will make a deadly wound.

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

The bullets in your second roll are breaking in half which will make a deadly wound.

Yeah, kinda like 00 buck......