Assault in Walmart vid...legal/not legal defense...?

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  • Raven

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    Saw this online today. Customer slams cart into WM employee, spits on him....WM employee cold cocks and knocks out customer. What say you...?


    Every American man is well within their rights as a free American to act however they wish. That is true freedom, and anything else is not freedom, not American. However, they are free to suffer the consequences of their actions, too. Are we still free, or are we oppressed slaves, the opposite of free? Both of their actions were legal in a free society, and it is the law that says otherwise that is illegal... in a free America.
     
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    lil'skeet

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    Every American man is well within their rights as a free American to act however they wish. That is true freedom, and anything else is not freedom, not American. However, they are free to suffer the consequences of their actions, too. Are we still free, or are we oppressed slaves, the opposite of free?
    Yes , where your mask! Take your vaccine! And do not question authority
     

    wildrider666

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    Every American man is well within their rights as a free American to act however they wish. That is true freedom, and anything else is not freedom, not American. However, they are free to suffer the consequences of their actions, too. Are we still free, or are we oppressed slaves, the opposite of free? Both of their actions were legal in a free society, and it is the law that says otherwise that is illegal... in a free America.

    Its unclear how your blanket statement would apply to both individuals in the OP/Vid. No one is within their Rights or Freedoms, when they impact those same Rights an Freedoms of another. The cart pushing spitter had no Right or Freedom to attack the employee. The attacker was at liberty, moving freely when he crossed the boundaries of Rights/Freedoms. People can act out physical aggression when not otherwise constrained but there's no Right or Freedom to do so, that's called stupidity and often criminality. Consequences to such actions can come in many forms, the Defenders actions were one of those potential consequences. In the reverse: a person has Rights and Freedoms to protect themselves and others.
     

    FrommerStop

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    I just filled out a questionnaire for District Court Jury Duty. Based on my perspectives: it could be a Blessing to some and Hell for others. Not to pre judge but to clearly hold the Line between right and wrong as presented. To be honest, I'm always cut by the defense lawyers, 3 to 4 Cases and lawyers each day I show up. Lol. I am well versed in Jury Nullification if a case requires that action.
    The last time about 2020 I was called for jury duty, the judge asked if anyone believed in jury nullification. No one in the large pool answered that they did, but some likely did believe in it. I do, but I do not argue with judges. I was not picked to serve on a jury and the last questionnaires I responded that due to age and hearing impairment I should be excused and I have not received a summons in years since.
     

    Raven

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    Every American man is well within their rights as a free American to act however they wish. That is true freedom, and anything else is not freedom, not American. However, they are free to suffer the consequences of their actions, too. Are we still free, or are we oppressed slaves, the opposite of free? Both of their actions were legal in a free society, and it is the law that says otherwise that is illegal... in a free America.
    For those that didn't get it... the point is that we're not free anymore and we don't have rights anymore because whatever decision we make there will be negative consequences. Anybody could win the LEO argument at the scene and not get arrested and still lose everything in civil court when whoever it is that cant leave well enough alone decides to sue. Nobody "wins". We all lose. The only fight you truly win is the one you see coming and avoid. Put the OODA loop into high gear whenever you are in public
     

    FrommerStop

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    OODA loop: Observe, ORIENT, Decide, Act.
    In a fight you want disrupt the other guy's ooda loop is a theory.
     

    Bowhntr6pt

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    The time to deliver the KO punch was DURING the physical engagement... not afterwards and when the other party is walking away.

    "Deserves" and "Justice" often collide... it certainly did in this case... the guy who got knocked out got what he deserved but the legal justification of the KO blow at the moment it was delivered is nonexistent or very weak at best.

    In this case, mitigating circumstances might help in the states' decision not to prosecute should the KO'ed dude claim victim status.

    Unfortunately I've had to make arrests in my career under similar circumstances where just after an incident, someone decided it was ok to give a departing "love tap" to their adversary. Sometimes things seem very fair... but often differ from what our laws require.

    This kind of goes along the lines of the post Accept Victory... sometimes it's best to just let things go, especially if they appear to be headed in a resolving direction.

    Raven is correct... many times regardless of the situation or outcome, you still lose. That's why it's important to practice "eating crow", "turning the other cheek", "backing down", "walking away" or what ever else you want to call it WHEN YOU CAN as your PRIMARY DEFENSE to conflict avoidance. It will go a long way in waking up the next day unaffected.
     

    FrommerStop

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    The time to deliver the KO punch was DURING the physical engagement... not afterwards and when the other party is walking away.

    "Deserves" and "Justice" often collide... it certainly did in this case... the guy who got knocked out got what he deserved but the legal justification of the KO blow at the moment it was delivered is nonexistent or very weak at best.

    In this case, mitigating circumstances might help in the states' decision not to prosecute should the KO'ed dude claim victim status.

    Unfortunately I've had to make arrests in my career under similar circumstances where just after an incident, someone decided it was ok to give a departing "love tap" to their adversary. Sometimes things seem very fair... but often differ from what our laws require.

    This kind of goes along the lines of the post Accept Victory... sometimes it's best to just let things go, especially if they appear to be headed in a resolving direction.

    Raven is correct... many times regardless of the situation or outcome, you still lose. That's why it's important to practice "eating crow", "turning the other cheek", "backing down", "walking away" or what ever else you want to call it WHEN YOU CAN as your PRIMARY DEFENSE to conflict avoidance. It will go a long way in waking up the next day unaffected.
    Eating crow is certainly something that most of us have done. Florida law seems to me to be very specific when applying force and using it to right a wrong on a retreating enemy is not sanctioned.
     

    wildrider666

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    We differ. Employees response was temporarily delayed by obstruction of second employee. Clearly viewing assaulted employees continuous actions to get past the impediment, the conflict is not mutually over and physical contact would have (will) continued. Aggressor made a bad decision not keep his eyes on the shit storm he physically started until he was well clear. The speed in which the employee advanced after he got free shows it didn't matter which way the aggressor was facing. Heat of the moment is not a defense but it is motivation to continue. A person can't punch someone then put their hands up and say I dont want to fight anymore and have an expectation of "it's over" because he said so. Not in my book anyway. Let the chip fly where they may.
     

    FrommerStop

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    We differ. Employees response was temporarily delayed by obstruction of second employee. Clearly viewing assaulted employees continuous actions to get past the impediment, the conflict is not mutually over and physical contact would have (will) continued. Aggressor made a bad decision not keep his eyes on the shit storm he physically started until he was well clear. The speed in which the employee advanced after he got free shows it didn't matter which way the aggressor was facing. Heat of the moment is not a defense but it is motivation to continue. A person can't punch someone then put their hands up and say I dont want to fight anymore and have an expectation of "it's over" because he said so. Not in my book anyway. Let the chip fly where they may.
    You are discussing moral justification vs legality. The mitigating circumstances might elicit a lesser sentence from the judge, but a not guilty verdict seems less likely. It the blow was delivered with an object from the shopping cart, the charged might be more serious. Just the act of falling when unconscious can result in serious head trauma.
     

    Jester896

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    If the guy in the yellow safety gear hadn't grabbed him I think his blow would have landed prior to the guy turning away. Man Bun was well on his way when he got yanked back
     
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    FNHman

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    For all those who think the walmart guy will get a charge, go up to a cop and push a cart into him spit on him and then start to walk away.... you know the fight is over right???? the cop will let you just leave since your back is to him.
     

    FrommerStop

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    For all those who think the walmart guy will get a charge, go up to a cop and push a cart into him spit on him and then start to walk away.... you know the fight is over right???? the cop will let you just leave since your back is to him.
    The officer has grounds to arrest the idiot for assault. If the idiot resists arrest-well!!!!
     

    Bowhntr6pt

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    A person can't punch someone then put their hands up and say I dont want to fight anymore and have an expectation of "it's over" because he said so. Not in my book anyway.

    Totally understandable... but your opinion conflicts legally with Florida law.

    Florida law does provide an "out" to a Primary Aggressor who ceases or retreats hostilities. Although it's not a very often used successfully, it's there in the law.

    FSS 776.041(2)(b) provides an out for an aggressor.
     

    Bowhntr6pt

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    For all those who think the walmart guy will get a charge, go up to a cop and push a cart into him spit on him and then start to walk away.... you know the fight is over right???? the cop will let you just leave since your back is to him.

    Not a good example. LE has arrest powers and the crime has been committed, Wal-Mart guy doesn't have arrest powers.

    Going after a person, after separation, can easily turn you into the Primary Aggressor. The Travon Martin case demonstrates how the roles can be reversed based on the totality of the situation and chronological order of the events (how things unfolded).

    The legal key here to consider is the asshole turned his back and began to walk away. Had the asshole stayed stationary and/or squared off on Wal-Mart guy, then it would have been more "in the moment" and a "continuous event" justifying self-defense.

    Another consideration is the severity of injury. Don't think for a second that the degree/seriousness of injury doesn't play into prosecutorial decisions. If asshole died as a result of being cold-cocked I'm sure the state wouldn't be so quick to say it was self-defense.

    While I don't think the Wal-Mart guy will get a charge, nor do I believe he should be charged, the current legal climate in this country says ANYTHING is possible. I damn sure wouldn't take my chances in today's climate. I'd rather take one on the chin and have it end there... not dragged out for years in criminal and civil court. But hey... Y'all do Y'all lol.
     

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