never cared about them before, NOW I want several!

FrankT said:

never cared about them before, NOW I want several!

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LOL, I feel the same way! Here's an idea, anybody on the Forum have a good 3D Printer? I'd bet you can probably make one with a 3D printer using a real one as a template! My guess is they'll forever be available on the Black Market LOL!

Well, this certainly turned out well, didn't it. I'm sure that's the end of 2A infringements.

This is the latest in what I see as the collapse of the constitution and rule of law. Blatantly an ex post facto case which is in itself expressly forbidden.

Mouser said:

One of the tragedies in this fiasco is the people that lost their lives in Vegas...and we still don't know why, motive, background etc...seems like one of America's best kept secrets...in fact it is so secret, and so far removed from the media that my radar is up big time...why? There is always an answer...at least some evidence leading to some logical conclusion...a void of nothingness... a media vacuum...you have dozens of people killed, hundreds injured...I would have thought it would still be in the news, in the section right after Trump collusion...heck, even Benghazi stayed in the news longer than the AR/bump stock shooter...weird is all I can say.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7AbiYhC6IU

I'm still digesting the document. The manipulation is clear. They even use one point to support their position then discard that same point of reference when it supports a contrary position.

1. The ATF Tech guys applied the Laws as written. Several Docs released stating BFS are not MGs, and okay to produce, own and use as designed.
2. Las Vegas mass murder occures, BFS reviewed again by ATF Techs: same position as above.
3. Trump says kill BFS.
4. Dept of Justice Legal Section( DOJLS) says ATF Techs didn't properly interpret the Law (existing Law).
5. DOJLS drafts and publishes "Changes to the Laws":including definitions, terms and interpretations.
6. DOJLS Then references the "new Changes that didn't exist earlier" as justifications that the prior ATF technical positions were in error and therefore have authority (again based on the Changes) to reclassify BFSs and order their destruction or surrender them from civillian ownership.
Every DOJLS supprting arguement would be moot, without merit on exist if DOJLS used the Law as it existed without (this) Change as use by ATF in all their other BFS determinations.

In brief: DOJLS wrote NEW REGULATIONS and are justifing the new regulations based solely on the content of what they just wrote! In short, Item X is illegal because we just wrote it's illegal! The white dog is black because DOJLS wrote all dogs are black.

I don't own or care for BFSs (diffeent strokes....). Like them or hate them, this BAN was done WITHOUT a any above board political process. Every gun owner should be extremely concerned over this. Any and every firearm, type or accessory regulating Law could be manipulated in similar fashion! DOJ neutered ATF and exceeded authority granted by Congress when DOJLS took what Congress specifically wrote (ATF based decisions) and modified it (DOJLS Rule Changes) in order to Ban an item.

DYK: It takes over 450 years for heavy plastics to biodegrade?

As a matter of being friendly, anyone that needs a GPS, shovel or a canoe, I'd be happy to loan them to you. It takes over 450 years for platics to biodegrade.

Burying weapons is not very useful. I like being able to use my guns. Waiting for a world with out rule of law just to use a bump fire stock seems to be a waste of resources and there is always the danger that it gets found.
What I would like to see happen we can not speak of here.

Realtor said:

talk in the street is the verbiage includes binary triggers, theres also talk about 30 round mags. it may get ugly here. where was the nra and goa? were they even involved?

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Yeah the NRA was involved....they are the fuckers who said they need more legislation. Fuck the NRA.

Don’t hold back doc tell us how you really feel.

M60Gunner said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7AbiYhC6IU

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well that was a rabbit hole of epic proportion...must have been similar to the mess after JFK. I will say this; taking out all of the conspiracy theory stuff, there is video of officers being told to shut of body cams? Paddock was a "high roller" meaning he likely spent over 10k in a sitting...some vague stuff about making money in real estate, otherwise was a postal worker, worked for the IRS, was an auditor....stuff that every day, middle class people did...where did his money come from? Lastly...I could not find a good autopsy report as I was trying to find the exact location of his chest wound...one of the videos had audio of two shots, several seconds apart that were the last shots fired...I don't know if they were dubbed for effect or actual recordings...if he shot himself through the heart before shooting himself in the roof of the mouth AND those were real shots...then someone else shot him as you have less than 10 seconds of consciousness when the flow of blood ceases suddenly to the brain...hunters know that a heart shot deer will not make it 50 yards...a lung shot one will. Another thing was the security guard who had two bullet fragments as wounds, appeared on Ellen for an interview and has not been seen since having left the country? Anyways, if he were an employee and was "hurt" on the job and that injury was a "recordable" accident, it would be on their OSHA log and reported as such...much was made about him being treated at some type of clinic which couldnt be verified...lost me on that one, but again, nobody made the connection with the OSHA log and that surprised me though likely that might not be public knowledge...weird...the whole thing is still wrapped in a veil of mystery and conspiracy theory and something isn't right...but bump stocks are now banned...

The original language banned all "rate enhancing devices" which really could mean a lot of different things from a lighter shorter trigger pull to a higher capacity magazine. There was a lot of pushback. I have not read the newest version does it still have that broad language?

Also this order can easily be rescinded. So they take and destroy your bump stock and then, 5 months later a new order saws, "no bump stocks are cool again, so you can have them" WTF. Setting all other issues aside for a moment they should not be able to take these away absent fair compensation.

When I first saw the pics of the hotel room my immediate thought was there is not enough brass. The high res videos of the cleanup show no broken glass or other signs of impact. Something isn’t right. Nothing conspiratorial about it.

Jeb21 said:

The original language banned all "rate enhancing devices" which really could mean a lot of different things from a lighter shorter trigger pull to a higher capacity magazine. There was a lot of pushback. I have not read the newest version does it still have that broad language?

Also this order can easily be rescinded. So they take and destroy your bump stock and then, 5 months later a new order saws, "no bump stocks are cool again, so you can have them" WTF. Setting all other issues aside for a moment they should not be able to take these away absent fair compensation.

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That will not likely happen without a court order. Not everyone in the gun community is as up in arms as they should be. There is the 'anti-bubba' group that says since they are only intended for stupid unskilled shooters, it is sort of ok to outlaw them since we have no use for them.
One reason I never purchased one besides the safety factor is that my clubs forbid such devices so I have no place to shoot one even if had one.
It will likely take a court case and it would be better prior to going to the supreme court to wait for Ginsberg to leave it first and let trump appoint another justice to the court.

FrommerStop said:

Burying weapons is not very useful. I like being able to use my guns. Waiting for a world with out rule of law just to use a bump fire stock seems to be a waste of resources and there is always the danger that it gets found.
What I would like to see happen we can not speak of here.

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I don't think folks will look at it as a what if waiting game, more like do you shred a $100 bill, give it to the Gov or just deny yourself physical possesion in another way? If the same Gov directed action targeted semiautomatic "Assault Weapons" or all semi automatic firearms: I think none of the Gov options would be acceptable! We need only look at other State directed destroy/turn in/deprive yourself of property results. An extreamly large amount of civil disobedience resulted!

What if a person gets caught with one after 90 Days? The DOJ Legal Section poo pooed every counter legal arguement but that too is just their opinion. The person(s) and BFS will get their day(s) in Court(s). That will provide Judgement and "Judicial interpretations" as opposed to Gov lawyers being paid to preduce a desired outcome. Call Senior ATFTech that made prior determinations, then call DOJ lawyers who changed the Law in order to create a justification/result.

FrommerStop said:

That will not likely happen without a court order. Not everyone in the gun community is as up in arms as they should be. There is the 'anti-bubba' group that says since they are only intended for stupid unskilled shooters, it is sort of ok to outlaw them since we have no use for them.
One reason I never purchased one besides the safety factor is that my clubs forbid such devices so I have no place to shoot one even if had one.
It will likely take a court case and it would be better prior to going to the supreme court to wait for Ginsberg to leave it first and let trump appoint another justice to the court.

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I’m sorry, his doj is outlawing them but you’ll trust his judges to give them back?
Because they’ll be conservative?

Yea, this is a Trump policy and we can expect his cronies to toe the line and follow this policy.

You have to question the timing of this, right after an election right before the holidays, immediately before a Fed Government shut down,

The guy who signed this order was the Temporary, Acting AG - the bald headed giant who played college football at Iowa. A lot of senior and more experienced folks at justice argued against going through with this order (kind of like a lot of senior and more experienced military and terrorism experts urged Trump not to pull out of Syria) but the Temporary, Acting, AG did it anyway. Just following his new coach's orders?

So here we are with the biggest defeat to 2A rights in a decade, handed to us by a "Republican" administration at a time when the Republicans control all three branches of the government. Kind of sucks, especially when you consider that while this administration has removed all other government regulations on banking, and the environment, and business, this administration has done nothing to protect, or expand our gun rights. A nationwide CCW would have been nice. Remove the restrictions on suppressors would have been awesome.

We got played, gentlemen.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...0d3c04-054b-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html

I wonder, what new gun restrictions we can expect in the coming weeks?

Found this bit of information:

"ATF initially concluded that it could not ban these devices through regulation in 2008. And after the 2012 shooting at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo., ATF further explained in a 2013 letter to Congress that it could not take unilateral action because “stocks of this type are not subject to the provisions of federal firearms statutes.” In addition, internal ATF documents made public through Freedom of Information Act requests by Giffords Law Center and Democracy Forward show that the agency had reiterated its lack of authority to ban bump stocks unilaterally and that it had approved similar devices as recently as April 2017 — under the Trump administration.

In March 2018, the Justice Department did an about-face, claiming that bump stocks do, in fact, fall under the legal definition of a machine gun and therefore can be banned through regulations. The administration’s position hinges on a dubious analysis claiming that bumping the trigger is not the same as pulling it."

So just to be clear, Obama concluded that bump stocks could not be banned by regulations, but now Trump officials have decided that it can ban bump stocks by regulation. That pain in the center of your back is from the knife. Cause we got back stabbed.

I also found this:

The NRA has been atypically muted in its response to the new rule. The gun lobby had previously backed a federal review to see if bump-stocks complied with existing law, writing: “The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations.” On Tuesday, NRA spokesperson Jennifer Baker expressed mild concern, called the final rule “disappointing” and suggesting the administration should have carved out an “amnesty” for “law-abiding Americans who relied on prior ATF determinations” that the devices were legal to buy.

(GEE NRA way to fight for our rights- way to stand up against the man on behalf of your millions of members)

I also found this:

But Erin Fuson, general manger at 2A Shooting Center, said it's not about the device itself; it's the principal.

"This is a massive overreach of the government, a massive over-classification of an item that really has nothing to do with keeping anyone safe," said Fuson.

Fuson said bump stocks aren't popular and doesn't even own one himself but worries this could only be the beginning.

"The only thing this will do is take law abiding citizens and turn them into criminals," said Fuson. "It will not save one human's life or prevent one act of violence."

And gun owners like himself don't want to turn anything they bought legally over to the government.

MAXman said:

I’m sorry, his doj is outlawing them but you’ll trust his judges to give them back?
Because they’ll be conservative?

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Never said I trust them. They are the only positive mechanism to overturn it. I do not know how they will react. I do know how Ginsberg will vote for sure and chances would be better if she was gone. The odds would be better, but obviously not a sure thing.