Where are the shooting competitions??

[cookvette81]

The R.O. he had follows the rules exactly and he was correct in the DQ even though it was a bit harsh.

Thank you for pointing that out, forgot to mention that... he was correct in the DQ, the rule I broke was a safety rule. The safety rules must be enforced or folks won't respect them, instead they will see what they can get away with and that simply won't do. No one gets a David Gregory exemption (current news story, google his name and that he wasn't prosecuted for having a large mag in DC) lol sorry had to throw in my political plug there...

On the otherhand, I would have liked a little grace since it was my first time and I didn't know I messed up. When I say "no biggie" I don't mean that as in the rule is stupid, I just mean that "I learned from it and let's pick up and go again"

Either way water under the bridge. And I can't wait for the next meeting, I have actually been practicing a little with target recognition and sight picture so I don't take to long trying to acquire the target. I pulled up the rule book and I'll have to see if I can print it at work, there seemed to be a lot of pages

 

[Ardiemus]

Cook when I shot my first IDPA match the only thing I wanted to do was complete the Course of Fire without being DQ'ed. Those guys can be strict and it was my only objective to fully comply. I feel ya, but great attitude come back, you only get better.

 

[Hipower]

Hey Caleb,
This is Mike the match director. Send me by pm your email address and I'll send you a bunch of start up info to answer your questions and help get you started. There are some You tube videos that will also be helpful to you. Some clubs have a dedicated New IDPA shooter starter class for beginners but with just a few here and there joining in and waiting to get enough to have a class, it lengthens the time by which you can get started. Maybe we'll have to start up a Beginner's class anyway. The main thing is the way by which folks learn about us isn't always the same and don't always learn about showing up the first time without being informed. Some folks travel a great distance to shoot with us without first notifying us or learning more about our club or IDPA chapter and it's kind of hard to turn them away after they drove two hours to be with us. We look forward to your getting educated about IDPA and coming back out to shoot with us.

 

[Dan1612]

Mike ,
I am also extremely interested. PM underway...


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[cookvette81]

Hey mike! Pm is on it's way! I'm actually already on the email list, I get the weekend recap emails each month. I'm sure there's a ton of addresses on that list so I'll send it to ya. I have actually been stocking up on my ammo so that once I get through the police academy I'll be able to join up and give it another shot. The IDPA set up looks like a lot of fun and will go towards helping me stay on my game. Thanks for getting back in touch, stay warm.

Caleb

 

[CCHGN]

Well, I watched a few meets and every auto shooter's mag bit the dust. Merely going by what my eyes saw, and what the shooters told me when I was thinking of joining the competitions.Rick

Those are what I call gamers. They come to the IDPA and try to "game" the rules. That is a pet peeve of mine. There's WAY too many shooting sports out there for folks to come to the IDPA and try get around the "spirit" of the IDPA. There's a penalty for that and I don't mind handing it out.

Every rule of the IDPA ( spirit) is to replicate real life scenarios. IF you were in a real armed encounter, it would be stupid and deadly to drop mags on the floor. Especially loaded mags. How sad the BG picks up your mags and kills you with your own bullets? The next stupid thing would be to shoot to slidelock. Your gun is empty and out of commission.

Just like in real life, the IPDA will have you "shoot to cover" ( get your butt to cover while you're shooting, don't stand there like a stagnant target.) and reload once you get behind cover. The idea is to keep your pistol topped off, but you may need those extra bullets, so hang onto them.

But gamers will shoot their wad before they even move, and then run to cover. Or run to cover and then shoot- wrong! if the COF calls for you to be shooting on the move, you darn well better be shooting and moving.

IMO, loading the mags to be purposely dumping mags is a gamer penalty.


See, in the super gamer sport of IPSC( which is a blast, btw), they have super customized guns that have these oversized magwells, that dumping mags is alot faster and fun, but the IPDA is not that.

Btw tac-reloads ain't all that, they can be practiced to be very fast, but more importantly, it's just a different idea of keeping the gun running and save all ammo.

 

[CCHGN]

After reading this I think I will just refer to you as Saint Caleb. You sir have the paitence of Job.

Idoono

FYI, Job lost his patience. God came to him in a whirlwind and told him, "How dare you question what I do!" He then restored him 10X.

 

[CCHGN]

J When my turn was coming close I went to ask a RO (later to find out his nick name was "The Nazi") about the ammo limit in the mags he asked what I had and motioned toward my gun with an open hand as though he wanted to check it out. Thanks guys,

Caleb

well, in all fairness, where else is it ok to go, as a stanger and just whip out your gun?


Also, if you ask me about mag limits and I ask you what you''ve got, I really don't need to see anything, you could just tell me...lol

But also, in all fairness, the RO ( btw, RO are running squads? what's up with that? what do the SO do?)was remiss for asking your what you've got. I could tell you what the rules on mag limits are without anyone showing anyone, anything.

 

[JohnAL]

I could tell you what the rules on mag limits are without anyone showing anyone, anything.

Yeah but you are the expert, cookvette81 is not.

 

[Dan1612]

Yeah but you are the expert, cookvette81 is not.

Oh no!
Please don't tell him that.
Even if it's true, in this instance at least, lol!


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[cookvette81]

well, in all fairness, where else is it ok to go, as a stanger and just whip out your gun?


Also, if you ask me about mag limits and I ask you what you''ve got, I really don't need to see anything, you could just tell me...lol

But also, in all fairness, the RO ( btw, RO are running squads? what's up with that? what do the SO do?)was remiss for asking your what you've got. I could tell you what the rules on mag limits are without anyone showing anyone, anything.

I'm guessing that you missed out on some of the previous comments, but I didn't just walk up out of no where and whip it out. It was my turn up next on the line. We were the only 2 up on the line that was already called hot, he gave a misleading instruction that I complied with while maintaining safe muzzle discipline. It was a simple misunderstanding that sucked, but my over all experience was very educational and positive. I thought the whole "trying to find fault" part was over and done with, since after all, there was no blame to be found. I misunderstood him, he did his job. it's that simple.

All's well that ends well. I do plan on going back out there once school wraps up. looking forward to getting out there and learning what I can.

 

[CCHGN]

Yeah but you are the expert, cookvette81 is not.

I wasn't pointing at cookvette, altho there's plenty of blame to go around. This man went to a match and got DQ, the worst that can happen ( except to shoot somebody). Most of the blame was the folks running the match, but some was him, for misperceiving and assuming. At the very least, he should have asked, "So, you want to see my pistol?" To which( my) the answer would be,"No, wait til I tell ya, if you do now, I'll DQ ya. Btw, there should not be a mag in your pistol. Carefully hand it to me." I'd unload it and make clear and hand it back to him and inform him of protocol.

Also, he had a mag in his gun( did he have one in the pipe?).....while mags can be loaded, no gun should have a mag in it( loaded), until you're on the firing line, the range is declared hot ( while the range is cold, certain folks can be down range, fixing targets, pasting holes , scoring, etc. Once the range is declared hot, NO ONE is allowed down range).and you're asked to load and make ready( meaning, you'll draw your pistol[pointing safely down range], load a mag, cycle one in the pipe, apply safety[if it has one], decock[if it has one] and reholster).

Either way, this is a good place to discuss what went wrong and the rules and hopefully they'll make more sense.

Cookvette is a grown man, he should accept his part, which I think he has.

However, I was pointing that to the RO and MD.

Imo, the "experts" should know how to handle situations. When you answer a question with a question, you're handing the control over.

As a lowly SO( rank goes: Safety officer- leads the squads thru the COF; Range Officer- leader of the SO, usually 2-3; Match Director- head honcho of match ), if asked what the mag limits are, I might ask, "What do you mean? Do you mean how many mags can you have in a COF, or do you mean how many rnds can you have in any given mags?", but most likely I'd say," well, you can have a minimum of 3 mags(a mag in your gun and 2 on your belt) and you want to load them to the max ." At NO time do I need to ask him what he has, because it doesn't matter.

The COF( course of fire- the actual stage, what it is and how you'll engage it) will dictate how many rounds are needed. The lowest common denominator is the 6 rnd revolver, so most CoF are revolver friendly, which means a reload after 6 rnds( revolver has to). So a typical COF will have 3 targets, that you double tap each one( or one to the chest on each one and then one to the head of each one[so you could go 123,123, or faster 123,321]), reload, engage 3 more targets, reload, etc. So a semi shooter that has a 15 rnd mag, it doesn't matter, he will still double tap 3 targets, reload( tac-reload), engage 3 more targets, reload, etc. with running from one cover to the next, shooting while moving, shooting at moving targets, shooting from behind cover( pieing),,while holding a 'baby' and running from cover to cover, shooting one handed, etc.


Gamers will load 6 rnds, so they can do mag dumps at the reloads, but IMO, that is a bad habit and goes against the spirit of the sport(in real life, will you load 6 rnds , so you can dump mags? uhh, no)

The whole thing is timed, with points down for misses and penalties.

Most clubs will do a complete walk thru and answer all questions. He musta missed the walkthru.

 

[jogan]

we're not allowed to "download" and just put 6 in our semi's. There's a procedural penalty for that. hell, I got one 'cause I MISTAKENLY only loaded 7 in my .45 when I had 8round mags. Got a penalty for hurting myself since I needed all 9 rounds for the COF. I'm one of those "gamers" you talk about. I'm there to find the fastest way through the course of fire as possible while still following the rules. Mike is our Match Director and he's on here now, so he can tell ya, even us gamers still have to follow the rules. We're not allowed to "mag dump," or reload without being behind cover. While IDPA has aspirations to simulate real world scenarios, it falls short in my opinion. We're shooting mostly static targets that are mostly all the same height and mostly all the same distances. We try to throw in some movers and vary the distance of some of the targets and even toss in a few non-threats which I think are just for me to shoot!lol The best thing most of us get out of IDPA is familiarity with our weapon of choice and some knowledge as to what does and does not work for certain situations. I shoot IDPA 'cause it's 7 minutes from my house and I can't drive 3 hours to shoot the other action pistol formats. My desire is to shoot 3-gun but again, I'm not driving hours on end or spending the night away from family to shoot a match. The best thing I take away from shooting once or twice a month in these IDPA matches is familiarity with the guns I use and confidence in what I can do with them. Will that help me in the real world? I think so... My draw stroke is second nature. My reloads aren't fumbled. I know what my limitations are as far as shooting beyond 25 yards. I know when I can get away with point-shooting and when I need to start finding the front sight. I've got my different holsters all broken in and I can now trust my equipment. Plus, it's a great group of guys that all share a common interest out there! The main thing I hate about it is that we are limited to only 10 rounds max. Thanks, California....

 

[CCHGN]

we're not allowed to "download" and just put 6 in our semi's. There's a procedural penalty for that.

Hmm, I saw this and thought differently:

it's faster to go to slide-lock and drop the empty mag and then reload a new mag. that's why you'll see most guys doing that. I absolutely HATE the "tac" reload or the reload with retention. I'll fumble the mags around like I just slammed all my fingers in a car door. It's one of the biggest arguments in the rules and there are new additions to the rule book coming soon.

So alot of folks dump mags, but they get penalties for it.

While IDPA has aspirations to simulate real world scenarios, it falls short in my opinion.

Aspirations? Col. (Jeff) Cooper( USMC), at the end of WWII, got a few buddies together and began shooting competitions( Gunsite out in Az). His intent was real life applications, but the "gamers" modified their guns and gear to gain advantage( those modifications are what inspired gunmakers- Colt, S&W, et al- extended dovetail, extended thumb safety, extended mag release, etc). He knew back in '48, that folks would do that .Some broke off and went to found USPC AND ISPSC, The founders of IDPA ( Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson[Wilson Combat], y'all know him)knew that also. Right now, Bill's wife is running the IDPA and imo, they're trying to remain cohesive in a world of blurred lines.

We're shooting mostly static targets that are mostly all the same height and mostly all the same distances. We try to throw in some movers and vary the distance of some of the targets and even toss in a few non-threats which I think are just for me to shoot! lol

Of Course, it's NOT real life(nothing except real life is, real life would require people shooting back at you- where FOF comes in), but it simulates real life, as much as safely possible. I know of no other sport so close. Like you said, it affords muscle memory, for real world action, that you'd take- drawing from concealment, gun handling, ammo discipline, manual of arms, real world tactics(crowding cover, pieing cover, target priority, from a car, with your family, etc).

The best thing most of us get out of IDPA is familiarity with our weapon of choice and some knowledge as to what does and does not work for certain situations.

OMG, I've seen ALOT of fumbling in my time( everyone is practicing dry fire for hours and hours, til it's second nature, right? the basic draw stroke, holstering[as important as the draw], the tac reload[bring fresh mag to gun, switch mags, stuff used mag in pouch or pocket], etc)- fumbling mags, dropping mags, dropping guns( several times, the buzzer goes off, they draw and the gun goes down range), ND while initially trying to load and make ready( that gets them a trip to the principle's[MD] office), tripping and falling while shooting on the move( yes, you should practice shooting and moving, your top half is stable, your bottom half doing all the moving[like a duck in water]), etc. I've seen slides go down range. Not to mention totally brain farting the COF.

technical stuff (most can skip)

As an SO , to run a smooth course, here's what I did(imo, was most efficient and calmed folks down the most): First, I'd put the more experienced in front and the new folks last( new folks want to see others go thru). I'd get the first person on the firing line and have them explain the walkthrough to me.. The most experienced, I'd just ask if they knew the walkthru, yes, ok. They'd be the ones with their eyes closed going over the stage anyway.
So, I'd get the 1st person thru the stage, declare the range cold and let the whole squad( and shooter) go score( have an official scorekeeper), except the next shooter, I'd have them there with me, at the starting line, having them explain the walkthru to me and calming them down. By the time the scoring and pasting was done, the official scorekeeper was the last one back and then I'd look again and then declare the range hot and take the next shooter through. This worked the best. No time was wasted.

But the new folks, I'd make them take several breaths and shake it off ( literally) and tell them they can do this and it's a breeze and to quit thinking and relax, let it flow and have fun shooting. They try to brain power themselves through it( for lack of practice) and if they'd just relax and "get in the zone"( where you're not really thinking, you're focusing and acting), they'd do better, but mainly they had to convince me that they knew, when that buzzer went off, what they were going to do. I actually had folks freeze up and I'd send them to the end of the line and see if they wanted to do it again. Remember, this is all happening while the rest of the squad is scoring and pasting.

Some folks didn't like having to explain the walkthrough to me, but most times I'd find that they were mistaken. I was stern about safety, but most folks wanted to be in my squad, as it was positive and we had fun and we got through efficiently and was usually waiting on the next stage( but that gave folks time to go potty and get a drink or snack or socialize, but mainly, relax and have fun). Most folks would thank me for a great day of shooting and they'd come back. They'd all had a job and they knew exactly what they were to do. Gamers didn't like me at all( but they wanted me to SO , cause I was so fast at getting folks thru). So finally( at my request), they'd put the gamers in the same squad( 1st squad) and a gamer SO would run 'em and they got through and everybody was happy( truth be told, while we were waiting for the next stage, we'd go watch the gamers).

end technical stuff

I'm one of those "gamers" you talk about. I'm there to find the fastest way through the course of fire as possible while still following the rules. Mike is our Match Director and he's on here now, so he can tell ya, even us gamers still have to follow the rules. We're not allowed to "mag dump," or reload without being behind cover.

Yes, the IDPA is a timed event( with points down for misses [you can't miss fast enough]and penalties), so the "name of the game" IS to do it as fast as possible, but within the rules. The problem is when real gamers try to go outside the rules to gain time and you can spot them a mile away.


Don't get me wrong, a IPSC gamer is a joy to watch- all head shots, mostly keyhole, very fast and laser sharp. They just don't take the rules seriously. In fact, the problem I had was I'd give the penalties and the gamers would go crying to the MD and get the points back. It got to the point that clubs were bending the rules to boost enrollment. I've shot from FT Myers to Central Fl to Kansas City to las Vegas and it's the same. very sad.

I shoot IDPA 'cause it's 7 minutes from my house and I can't drive 3 hours to shoot the other action pistol formats. My desire is to shoot 3-gun but again, I'm not driving hours on end or spending the night away from family to shoot a match.

When I lived in Central Florida, there were several ranges, all within a hour. I could go a shoot every weekend and I did. IDPA was twice a month in Lakeland( yes, the Swamp[ I knew Smokin Joe]), IPSC was another in Plant City and another, 3gun over in Orlando( and Cowboy , SASS). One year, the IDPA National was in Orlando.
It's sad that with all this area here that several ranges ain't open and all the sports can participate and folks can shoot every weekend. I'd drive to P'cola and to Jay and then to Crestview, for example.

 

[Ryan]

hard time following a long post like that but looking forward to going to the next idpa match. I need to see what blue label glocks gold mine has don't know if I want a 19 or wait for a 34 only 85$ difference at 440otd and 525otd

 

[CCHGN]

hard time following a long post like that but looking forward to going to the new idpa match.

well, half of it would only be interesting to those running the match, anyway.

Yes, it's a lot of fun, just remember, when you roll up , make sure your mags and gun are completely empty....lol

 

[Snow Bird]

Well I did enjoy reading you educating people about what goes on. (yep you heard that from SNOW BIRD)..I can see I will have to go to several matches or watch alot of you tube before I ever try to shoot in a match. I don't want to make a bo bo and be told to clear my gun and go home. Guess it's mostly safety and should be but I don't understand the thing about how many rounds you can or should have loaded. Got alot to learn thats for sure. Does it kind of alittle bit depend on if you have a jerk as your SO. Not talking about you but it kind of sounds like there is alot of yelling in your ear.

 

[jogan]

no yelling of any kind unless you are told to "stop!" For the most part, it's very safety oriented with a whole bunch of fun thrown in. We have several S.O.'s that have an excellent demeanor with the newer shooters. Not to mention, there's usually about 30 other shooters out there that are more than willing to help out anyone who wants to learn. If anyone on this forum wants to shoot any of the upcoming IDPA matches, contact me or Mike (he's "highpower" on here) and we'll make it a point to buddy up with you at the match and give you a run down on how things work. Once you understand a few things, it's not as scary as people make it out to be. Most of the things that get mentioned are common sense but still manage to trip up some people. The main thing I see is when you're done with the Course Of Fire, keep your gun pointed DOWN RANGE and when you're asked if you're finished, continue with your gun pointed down range and answer. If the answer is "yes," then the S.O. will ask you to unload and show clear. What he's looking for is you to drop the mag from the gun into your hand, you to stow the mag in a pocket, lock the slide back (don't worry about the bullet ejecting from the chamber, you'll deal with that later!) show the S.O. that there's nothing in the chamber area, release the slide when he tells you to, then drop the hammer and reholster. Now...you will do this while your gun is pointed DOWN FRIKKIN RANGE the entire time! Watch a couple of shooters go before you and pay attention to how they unload their firearm. For something as simple as this, it gets the most screw ups. After you've unloaded and shown clear and reholstered, you can now pick up your stray bullet and retrieve any mags you might have dumped during the course of fire. It sounds long and confusing, but it's pretty simple once you've done it a few times! Most of the matches you'll need about 60 rounds. Your firearm will determine which class you will be shooting in. Any of the higher capacity guns will be only allowed to load 10 rounds per mag. This is due to the rules having to include California and any other state that thinks 10 rounds should be a limit..... If you shoot a 1911, and you can only load 8 rounds in your mag, then you must load 8. No less. Depending on the Course of Fire, the 1911 guys might have reload at a different time during the Course Of Fire compared to the guys in the other classes running 10 rounds in their mags. Sometimes this can help, other times this can hinder. All you wheel gunners, you're stuck with 6 rounds. Have fun with that!

 

[JohnAL]

All you wheel gunners, you're stuck with 6 rounds. Have fun with that!

Unless you are Jerry Miculek.

 

[cookvette81]

I am really getting a lot out of what I'm reading here guys, keep going! This discussion on what may seem technical really is a good thing to read, it helps clear things up for me and I'm sure it does for others.

One quick correction on the below quote, the only 2 mags I had were in my rear pocket. No round in the pipe and no mag in the mag well.

Also, he had a mag in his gun( did he have one in the pipe?)

Carry on

Caleb.


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