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Position Sul its origin and how it can be adapted to CCW handling

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  • FrommerStop

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    First video is by Max Joseph with TFTT / Direct Action Group; he discusses the origin and proper execution of position SUL. Sul was originally designed for training and also for team tactics to prevent sweeping/covering yourself or other in your group when this pistol is in your in your hand.


    There is an additional use of SUL that I would recommend for the CCW user. The SUL position of the hands is a little different in that it is meant to somewhat conceal the gun. After drawing a gun due to a threat, whether you have used it or not, one does not holster until it appears that the threat is gone. In public it is not a good idea to be presenting a gun if you are not wearing a uniform. You can be shot for that. So the off-hand is not under the gun as in a proper SUL, but is placed over it while you look for any threats. Then holstered and last thing is to check yourself for wounds.
    The below video 'Suarez Pistol Kata: Watch Your Back' by Brent Yamamoto is quite busy in that he is doing a lot of things. I am focusing on how he used a modified position SUL conceal his pistol while cks out the scene and decides if it is safe to holster the gun.
     

    Bowhntr6pt

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    I spent a week training with Pat McNamara and he showed me a weak point with position SUL.

    With your wrist already "broken", should someone pass by you and catch on your muzzle, or grab it, you will most likely lose the pistol.

    Try it to see... just food for thought.
     

    FrommerStop

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    I spent a week training with Pat McNamara and he showed me a weak point with position SUL.

    With your wrist already "broken", should someone pass by you and catch on your muzzle, or grab it, you will most likely lose the pistol.

    Try it to see... just food for thought.
    I do not have as much experience with training as the professionals here do. I have only worked with people from Gabe Suarez's group. What they do makes sense to me and their trainees do survive fights.
    Honestly is there anyway that one can hold a gun so that a stronger person can not take it from you if they are close, fast, and good with their hands.
    In proper sul you have just one hand actually securing the gun. A simple movement will get both on it. But
    You are missing the purpose of the position that foremost was safety during training exercises and then later it adapted to semiconcealment while seeking to holster it. As a police officer in uniform the second use of sul is just not relevant.
    Example where Sul might saved this hero's life.
    1595289556816.png

    Picture above was a soldier that intervened in a mall shooting. He has his gun visible and was killed by responding police. His mother is suing of course. He should of kept his gun holstered until he saw something. During a shooting having your gun out will get you killed.
    The 21-year-old Bradford initially started running, along with other shoppers, after shots rang out at the mall, the suit states.

    When he saw a teenager had been shot, Bradford drew his weapon and walked toward the location of the shooting to "try to protect people and assist the victim," according to the lawsuit. Alabama is a concealed carry state with a state pistol permit, which Bradford had.

    Two Hoover officers working as mall security went to investigate the shooting and one of the officers immediately fired "upon observing Bradford, a young black male with a handgun," the suit states. The second officer did not fire his weapon at Bradford.
     

    Bowhntr6pt

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    I do not have as much experience with training as the professionals here do. I have only worked with people from Gabe Suarez's group. What they do makes sense to me and their trainees do survive fights.
    Honestly is there anyway that one can hold a gun so that a stronger person can not take it from you if they are close, fast, and good with their hands.
    In proper sul you have just one hand actually securing the gun. A simple movement will get both on it. But
    You are missing the purpose of the position that foremost was safety during training exercises and then later it adapted to semiconcealment while seeking to holster it. As a police officer in uniform the second use of sul is just not relevant.
    Example where Sul might saved this hero's life.
    View attachment 88035
    Picture above was a soldier that intervened in a mall shooting. He has his gun visible and was killed by responding police. His mother is suing of course. He should of kept his gun holstered until he saw something. During a shooting having your gun out will get you killed.

    Nope, I missed nothing. Like I said... food for thought, was not an end all be all statement nor jab at your information.

    Of course no one technique is full-proof. I fully get what you're post was saying and agree. I'm just pointing out, as Pat demonstrated in real life, if someone moves past you dynamically and catches on your muzzle you're likely to lose the pistol because of the broke wrist hold.

    If you 've ever done CQB operations like I have, or active shooter response training, you would appreciate what I'm saying.

    Studying tactics and techniques requires knowing the strengths AND weaknesses. I just highlighted a possible weakness one should be aware of when moving their pistol to SUL.

    Not a Gabe fan... you can do your own research into the dude.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Nope, I missed nothing. Like I said... food for thought, was not an end all be all statement nor jab at your information.

    Of course no one technique is full-proof. I fully get what you're post was saying and agree. I'm just pointing out, as Pat demonstrated in real life, if someone moves past you dynamically and catches on your muzzle you're likely to lose the pistol because of the broke wrist hold.

    If you 've ever done CQB operations like I have, or active shooter response training, you would appreciate what I'm saying.

    Studying tactics and techniques requires knowing the strengths AND weaknesses. I just highlighted a possible weakness one should be aware of when moving their pistol to SUL.

    Not a Gabe fan... you can do your own research into the dude.
    Good answer. I have been around his group since 2006 and I know the score. I have seen him go from an advocate of the AK to the AR and such. LOL in the last two years I have been changing over the AR. A couple of us have discussed some obvious recent changes there and have mostly decided it was still worth our while to hang out there and to be careful what we say there. I do not have to be a fan to pay attention if I can gain from it.
     

    jlw

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    I spent a week training with Pat McNamara and he showed me a weak point with position SUL.

    With your wrist already "broken", should someone pass by you and catch on your muzzle, or grab it, you will most likely lose the pistol.

    Try it to see... just food for thought.

    What did Pat Mac recommend in place of Sul?
     

    jlw

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    Here's an article that I wrote that is on topic: A Study of Ready

    It contains a different video by Max Joseph explaining "Sul" as well as Dave Spaulding's Arc of Ready and an old video of Paul Gomez along with some linking discussion.
     

    Bowhntr6pt

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    What did Pat Mac recommend in place of Sul?

    He wasn't anti-SUL, as in "don't do that, do this", he just pointed out a weakness in the position. Makes sense.

    Thanks for the videos, part of what I'm referring to is addressed.

    I've never used/taught SUL nor do I ask others not to use it. Maybe I'm missing out LOL.

    I like/teach/recommended something similar to the Arc of Ready. Pistol brought in tight, two hand hold, butt above my belt line and in contact with my body, and muzzle directed as downward as necessary to clear anyone/anything to my front (depending on how far away they/it are). It accomplishes the purpose of muzzle accountability, allows great physical control over the pistol for retention, can be simply pointed muzzle up for a tucked shot if necessary, and is a great start position for an extended firing position (like mentioned in the Arc video).

    Most of us is discussion with Pat on the topic preferred a similar approach and I can't say my take-away was he prohibited or discouraged SUL.

    At about 3:37 in the Gomez video, that's what they taught us at FLETC a few years ago. I'm ok with it but it requires distance to be functional for obvious reasons and isn't something you would want to use in close quarters.

    By the way, my condolences on the loss of Carter. While I didn't know him personally, in my short exposure to him it was obvious how well liked he was. A true loss no doubt.
     

    jlw

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    By the way, my condolences on the loss of Carter. While I didn't know him personally, in my short exposure to him it was obvious how well liked he was. A true loss no doubt.

    Thanks. I still can't wrap my brain around it all.
     
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