POA-POI how do you ZERO your hunting rifle?

[M118LR]

Is your Hunting Rifle ZEROED in the center of shots 3,4, and 5?
Or can you expect your Clean Cold Bore Shot to Strike the Red Dot?
Why do the Military's best shooters log all thier Clean Cold Bore Shots even with the most accurate firearms the Military can provide?

Thanks in advance for Y'all's input/opinions.

 

[ccather]

Is this the rifle's normal pattern with that ammo?

 

[M118LR]

Is this the rifle's normal pattern with that ammo?

This was the repeatable pattern for the first 5K rounds with this rifle with Silver Bear 154 Grain Hollow Points give or take an RCH dependent on ammo lot. (Centering the group on shots 3,4,& 5 produced near MOA performance during the rest of the range session.) Mini-30 Tactical with Heavy 16 inch barrel, and copious hours with a torque wrench attempting to find the perfect harmonic point. Shot & witnessed at GRPC Jacksonville Fl. Photographed on the witnesses phone camera.

Actual Cold Bore ZERO was 150 yards which I consider to be MAX Range for 154 grain 7.62 x 39mm on Deer/Hog. Therefore Cold Bore was expected to be a bit high at 100 yards.

 

[Raven]

Cool stuff from the best in the biz

 

[Raven]

You need an adjustable cheek rest. You gotta hold your eye ball at the same place every time, and maintain bone support with muscle relaxation, too. This was realized like 70 years ago, that 300 yard sniper rifles become 600 yard sniper rifles with a proper adjustable cheek rest

 

[Rebel_Rider1969]

Yeah, look at all the high tech doodles and bs this guy used.... my daddy always told me it's the indian not the arrow.

 

[ccather]

With 5K rounds, you have determined the pattern. Looks like around 3 MOA.

I am sure the options are obvious to you.
1). You could chose the center of the entire pattern (1-5) and be off by 1.5 to 2 inches. Will that anchor the animal?
2). If only one or two shots are taken, you may try the cold bore zero which would give you more predictable POI for those first shots.
3). Zeroing with shots 3-5 would require you remember that your first 2 rounds will impact 2 to 4 inches away.

If none of these work for you, you will need to address the stringing you are experiencing. Then pick the center of a much smaller pattern.

 

[wildrider666]

Q: Is your Hunting Rifle ZEROED in the center of shots 3,4, and 5?
A: Hunting big game, I use the POI Center of 3 shot group from a Cold Barrel. For higher volume like Prairie Dogs Town eradication: hot barrel Zero is better as that will be the longer "condition" of operation.

Q: Or can you expect your Clean Cold Bore Shot to Strike the Red Dot?
A: My Barrel will be "fouled" and Cold: not clean going into a the field/hunt.

Q: Why do the Military's best shooters log all thier Clean Cold Bore Shots even with the most accurate firearms the Military can provide?
A: Because there is value in that data. Every Sniper or rifle Match shooter starts off with a cold barrel and those first hits must "score" as well as those fired later. These shooter log in much mor data than just the POI. Even with the military's best equipment, where the "shift" can be relatively minor at short range can be a major difference a greater distances. Recruits in Marine Boot Camp get their first Marksmanship Training use Individual Rifle Log Books!


I think it's common and normal to have a POI shift between a clean and fouled bore, a cold and a warm/hot barrel. IMHO:
1. The 7.62×39 is not generally known as a sub-MOA caliber.
2. The Silver Bear may help but even Silver Bear Match (capped HP) ammo isn't that consistant. It's more advertising gimic than Results delivered.
3. The Ruger Mini 30/14 Series rifles are not advertised as sub-MOA platforms. I don't think general shooter consensus at the range says they are either. I don't know if the heavier but shorter barrel on your Tactical model delivers better results than the longer standard barrel.
4. There is no mention of using Iron or Optics (type/magnification).

 

[FrankT]

This and worse is why I dumped my mini 30, even after the barrel stabilizer, cheek rest and all else I did it was a POS, My AR in X39 shoots lights out...just sayin'

 

[no woryz]

Hunting rifle is zeroed on a cold bore zero, but i do know that its climbs 1" up & right @ 200 if a warm barrel follow up shot is needed...

 

[Telum Pisces]

My Rem 700 hits the same grouping cold bore as it does hot! Sorry, I wouldn't consider a mini 14 to be your typical accurate hunting rifle! Enough to get a vitals kill at 100 yards, more than likely. But if hunting deer and I know my gun shoots here everytime at cold bore, then that's where I'm putting the zero. You don't warm it up to take a shot at a deer or hog!

 

[M118LR]

Guess Y'all are telling me I need to do some "Splaining Lucky".

Now since the dog got to Old to hunt & the Blade grew a bit rusty, I decided I needed a light carbine with glass to maintain the standard once set with an iron sighted .30-30 Marlin Lever Action. Since the object is to make the first shot count, that clean cold bore Zero remained more constant than any grouping the Mini-Thirty could produce. So the clean cold bore never transgressed to even 1/4 MOA for that one shot. (i.e.Inside of 150 yards If the shooter can, the rifle did.) If a second shot was needed, it was the shooters fault.

Nowadays, the scoped Mini-thirty holds "More Better" than M1A/AR10 etc when standing unsupported with a hasty plinking 8 inch paper plates @ 100 yards. (My time for shooting unsupported 10+ pound rifles is in the past. 10 out of 10 on a 8 inch paper plate @ 100 yards with a light carbine can effectively fill a freezer. ) Since a Hunting Rifle will be carried more than it's shot, (that's the goal what with today's limitations.) Onces equal pounds & pounds equal pain. Fatigue is the greatest enemy when making that standing clean cold bore Kill Shot. JMHO. Best way to figure out if you perform best standing with a light carbine or heavy barreled precision rifle is on the 100 yard line with 8 inch paper plates. 10 for 10 and your Golden either way. Now way back in the day, the USMC used to make folks shoot Standing Unsupported from a hasty at 200 yards with M14's during qualifications. Don't believe these Old Forearms are up to that anymore. LOL.

 

[Raven]

We still do the 200 in the standing position, just nowadays we got $1,000 4x Trijicons. I hear that somewhere along the way we won a contract for 1-8x optics, too. When it's my ass on the line I'll take all the help I can get. Oh, and Hathcock was a little fond of the most prolific and deadly issued sniper rifle of all time..... the Mosin Nagant. Think he would have traded his fancy Winchester for a Mosin to prove the point that it's the indian, not the arrow? Not on your life, and certainly not on his either! Spend the money, and get the best you can, and pray that at the end of it all that you and your men get to go home

 

[M118LR]

Don't they put 4X Trijicons on Plastic Fantastics? (LOL) Last time I snuggled a M14 Derivative it carried a M8541 Day Scope, but that was like a Star Wars intro....Long, Long, Long Ago...... LOL. Not sure I've got a use afield Hunting Large American Game Animals with a .22 Cal. at 200 yards or more? (LOL) Bring em back Alive Raven, BZ. Old Folks like me are just holding down the Homefront, you just can't imagine how much those Dependents can increase the grocery bill. LOL. Considering getting a Milk Cow...LOL.

 

[Raven]

The natives up north go bear hunting with 22 magnums. You gonna let them show you up? Lmao

 

[Raven]

And I hear in China they go bear hunting with air rifles

 

[M118LR]

And I hear in China they go bear hunting with air rifles

Ain't it Great to actually live in "Merica"! LOL.

We can own High Powered Arms that actually meet or exceed our hunting purpose.

 

[wildrider666]

FWIW: Based on all your comments, I recommend Zero at the POI #3- 4. Here's my hunting logic:

1. For First shot you normally have some time to set your POA, and can add "Hold" adjustments.
A. Even with a quick jump shot we mentally adjust distance, speed, lead and take the shot.
B. The necessity for quick shots normally presents it self at much closer ranges that 100 yards, which closes the spread between Cold #1 and a #3-4 Zero.

2. As you get towards your 150 yard limit, your #3-4 Zero will provide first shot cold accuracy (without holdover) right into the kill zone. The slight 1 to 1.5 MOA Windage in practical application is moot but "Wind Value" is a variable that must be consider on the spot.

 

[M118LR]

Pondering upon your recommendation wildrider666.
A full value right to left wind would reduce the windage error, but a full value left to right wind would only increase the amount of error. Practical application, Inside the 150 yard limit the 7.62 x 39 mm 154 grain @ 2200 fps muzzle the projectile will not travel above the sight line high enough to require an "elevation" Hold adjustment. (ie still point blank range) While it is more range time consuming to Zero on the Clean Cold Bore, adding intentional error could make that first (most important "SWAG"ed Military Jargon excuse me?) ambush shot become less effective. Thereby losing the advantage of surprize and further complicating the follow up shot which would be required.

Since the Mini-30 has a 2x10 Weaver with EMDR reticle mounted on it, instantaneous Mildot corrections and ranging solutions require no manipulation of the turrets. Should the shooter fail to perform during shots 1&2, adjusting the turrets to center POA within the 3,4,& 5 group POI can be accomplished leasurily while awaiting another engagement. So I do see the Merit of your well thought out recommendation, but my failing is the years of Government Training that doggedly direct me to make that first round be mechanically as accurate as possible since shooter error is normally greater than a rifles accuracy potential. JMHO.

Perhaps I should include a snapshot of the Mini? And a PDF of the EMDR for folks reading along?

In Addition: 5 round Ruger Mini-30 Mags fit perfectly into the Old WWII Cotton M1 Carbine Rig. (10 times 5 + 1 in the firearm = 55 rounds of Legal Limit Fun.) The Mini-30 has been modified with a "Bear Tooth" Comb Riser to accommodate the Weaver Tactical Glass. The Bayoneted 590 is just additional "GUN PORN" since I didn't have a Mini-30 alone photo in the Pictures Bin. LOL.

Oh Bye the way: there isn't any provision for a (POD) attachment to the Mini-30. A "Hasty" to Shoulder is all the stability incorporated. LOL Perhaps a bit "Old School", but "GADIT" fatigue weighs heavy on this Old Man.......LOL

I seem to be getting even more LONG WINDED?

 

[wildrider666]

The wind is always something you adjust for on the spot at the shot. The shots #3-4 1MOA Right @100 yards isn't from "wind deflection", its barrel heat/harmonics shifting the POI: therefore a 10 Knot wind from the left or the right will move POI the exact same distance from Zero but to opposite sides. Were not even close to needing advanced long range calculations like bullet spin for this distance and gear.

Your first stealt/ambush shot should have much greater "Prep/POA time thereby allowing a more precise shot. By necessity Follow Up shots are of more urgency affording less prep time. However, the hunter with great familiarity with his gear can instinctively make those transitions seamlessly.


On your scope @ 150 yards: 1 Mil = 5.4 inches. I don't see any dot/hash (or part there of) marking "near center crosshair" that will assist "Hold" for the minor 1.5 inches @150 yards. This leaves you to "Kentucky windage" or "turret Clicks" (Mil or inch) type increments. Your First focal plane reticle enlarges with magnification, at 150 yards @10× and looking at an animal: a deer that's 18 inches Back to Chest would fill 3.333 Mils. You adjustment would be .108 Mils (a hair larger than the "inner circle" of the scope dots). Fur doesn't have Grid Lines though an eye or ear are okay "IF" thats the shot but its a long way from 8 inch paper plates or a patch of fur. Lol

People will often defer to their comfort zone. I think you expressed the Cold shot Zero as yours. Consistant Accuracy is always a worthy goal. I don't think what you have now is bad. Have you tried Premium or Match ammo for group size or just sticking with your standard load?