Near confrontation. What's legal?

[stage20]

Pulled up to drop my help off. Guy comes out from house that's not rented. Walks across my truck and walks into my helps covered porch that has an entry door. He doesn't know who this guy is. He tells me to hold tight. Goes up to stranger/intruder and asks what are you doing here? Guy says I'm looking for so and so. And walks off.

What's strange is he walks to the next house like he's going to go in it and makes an avasive action and starts walking the other way down the street.

My buddy carries a pocket knife. Obviously I have firepower. Not sure what this guy could have pulled or done.

Not my property but in my eyes this guy was probably going to steal some stuff if we didn't show up.
Would I be in the right if the homeowner was attacked to draw or just get into a physical altercation?

 

[JWlineman]

Not a cop or lawyer but it would've needed to be a "life threatening" situation before I went to my firearm. Protecting someone's property wouldn't be justifiable in my opinion. You're in your vehicle, call for the proper authorities, back away and be a good witness.
If the situation escalates beyond that and he/she threatens deadly force then I would adjust accordingly(and I was outside my vehicle). Those scenarios become a soup sandwich real quick. Glad it didn't go any further, the best fights are the ones that never happen.

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[stage20]

Call the proper authorities. Lol. Can't believe you would say that. Surely I wouldn't shoot a guy for just being in someone's yard. What if he had a gun or pulled a knife and stabbed my friend, where do I stand? Looked like it was about to get bad, but didn't!

 

[Jdcujo]

Defense of self and defense of others. Avoid a physical altercation as much as possible otherwise you establish yourself as "looking for trouble"

Smart idea would be to have contacted law enforcement with the description of the individual and have reported it so paperwork trail has started.

 

[Jdcujo]

If you dont have a clear idea of the legality of use of force my suggestion is dont carry until you do.

 

[jmfillin1]

Pulled up to drop my help off. Guy comes out from house that's not rented. Walks across my truck and walks into my helps covered porch that has an entry door. He doesn't know who this guy is. He tells me to hold tight. Goes up to stranger/intruder and asks what are you doing here? Guy says I'm looking for so and so. And walks off.

What's strange is he walks to the next house like he's going to go in it and makes an avasive action and starts walking the other way down the street.

My buddy carries a pocket knife. Obviously I have firepower. Not sure what this guy could have pulled or done.

Not my property but in my eyes this guy was probably going to steal some stuff if we didn't show up.
Would I be in the right if the homeowner was attacked to draw or just get into a physical altercation?

Well. I'm by no means an attorney, nor would I suggest abiding by any advice on this topic by someone who isn't (though attorneys can also be wrong). Many laws in 2020 are pretty grey, in fact the statutes around this are also grey. From what I've read in the past, you can't use or threaten the use of deadly force by pointing a gun at someone who isn't trying to forcibly enter your home. You also can't use deadly force or threaten it outside a dwelling unless you believe yourself (or the homeowner) will be at risk for great bodily harm, or death. Again "great bodily harm" can be vague, such as, is that before your beat unconscious or after? Is someone armed with a pencil a "great risk of bodily harm?" Basically what I'm saying is to take any advice with a grain of salt, especially online or from friends. People can research statutes and interpret them differently than what established case law has ruled on, and I'd prefer not to be a case law guinea pig. Id say to (obviously) avoid any confrontation if possible, stay armed, but try not to let emotions over power logical decisions in a confrontation. As much as I'd like it to be, this isn't like the old days where you could rack a shotgun, aim it at a trespasser, and say "get out of my yard boy ::spit dip::" I'm sure others will chime in with advice, which is great, but trust me, many aspects of the law are up for interpretation especially in today's climate. You could be in prison for wounding a criminal, and the criminal will have a $250,000 GoFundMe account set up for him, if you aren't careful.


With that said...your life should always be the priority, and no attorney, judge, or prosecutor will be in your shoes in the heat of the moment.

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[stage20]

No emotions. I was even thinking if they got in a fist fight I'd just let them go at it.
I don't want to be the instigator at all. Avoid confrontation, number one rule of carrying.

 

[JWlineman]

Call the proper authorities. Lol. Can't believe you would say that. Surely I wouldn't shoot a guy for just being in someone's yard. What if he had a gun or pulled a knife and stabbed my friend, where do I stand? Looked like it was about to get bad, but didn't!

Ok dude, my opinion for sure. If some sketchy dude is wondering around my neighborhood that would be my first action. But hey, you may have better attorneys.

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[M60Gunner]

Stage, as military police we were trained to have three safeties. O-I-C. Opportunity,Intent, Capability. If a subject has the opportunity, demonstrates intent, and possesses the capability to use force a reasonable person would believe could cause serious bodily injury or death to yourself or another individual, deadly force is authorized.

Once you think of OIC is when you must remember to immediately check your six. Scan the area for other threats because tunnel vision will get you killed. If you are thinking OIC your color scale has now gone from yellow to orange. If it goes to red you are not having a good day. You are not Cooper or Ayoob and this is not, I repeat not, a training exercise.

Now, opportunity was present. Was intent communicated when he stepped too close to your friend? What about capability? Where are his hands? Is he holding something? Did he raise his voice? How tall is the subject? How much does he weigh? What is his demeanor? How is he standing? What do your instincts tell you? Could you articulate the circumstances to an interrogator and defend your decision? How about to a judge or jury?

 

[stage20]

Ok dude, my opinion for sure. If some sketchy dude is wondering around my neighborhood that would be my first action. But hey, you may have better attorneys.

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No attorney here. Didn't mean to come off sour. I was laughing. Can't believe someone on a gun forum would say that. That's what the anti gunners want you to do.
All good. I know you don't want something to happen and get sued.

 

[zombieh8r]

Deleted

 

[wildrider666]

Based on OP initial Post: Was it suspicious activity,? Yes. Did the suspious activity and persons continued actions rise to the minimum standard of a life/great bodily harm Threat/Act to you or another person? No.
Report serious suspicions, Act on appropriate Level physical Threats.

No flashing/brandishing or Warning Shots. However, situations can change/deescalate in miliseconds; you don't have to shoot when drawn if you recognize the Threat has deminished.

IMHO, YMMV, Non lawyer.

 

[FrankT]

call and report him, you are not a cop

 

[RackinRay]

Stage, from your original post and answer to JW's comment (understand the lol implication) it sounds to me that you are not as grounded and versed in laws governing self defense and use of force as you should want to be.

I would recommend some quality training to bridge that gap to make you more ready, and able to read and judge, such situations for yourself.

 

[wildrider666]

Stage20 obviously made the right decisions on site at the time of the event. Everything in the OP is narrative or speculation until the last sentence which carries the only question, requesting Feedback.

"Would I be in the right if the homeowner was attacked to draw or just get into a physical altercation?"

Opinion answer: In general, it does not meet the justification threshold for use of defensive lethal force to protect another person: drawing, presentation or threatening with your firearm would be illegal in Fl. You can lawfully physically intercede (LTL) IOT breakup, defend/protect or to assist the victims egress from an unprovoked attack. To subdue and restrain the attacker can be an "extended application" of force. Your objective can't be to aid the victim into dominating and continue to press the advantage with your "help" to beat his ass .

Disparity in force. Numbers (2 on 1), physical and age differences between aggressor (WWE poster child) and victim senior citizen (70yo) or small boy AND your age/physical characteristics (65yo woman) as a sole person able/willing to intercede; can also be a disparity: it may move the justification meter towards lawful use of deadly force based on the totality of the situation. If your a MMA fighter wanting to intercede, you're on a pretty level field with the WWE aggressor so lethal force (gun) is not justified.

An aggressor can not claim self defense unless it's been determined there was a secession (he quit the fight) and the original victim initiates a continuation. If it becomes original victim +1 pressing the achieved advantage (ass whooping) on 1: that too may be considered a disparity of force and unlawfully excessive.

Laws are Laws and provide framework giudance. Actual applications/determinations by DAs, Juries and Judges deliver interpetions of events when viewed in the context of the Laws. A singular event can interpeted differently by the various cogs within the wheels of Justice. Lawyers provide opinions and quote Case Law.

VMMV

 

[stage20]

I think I worded my post or explained myself wrong by y'all's comments.
I wasn't going to pull a gun on the guy just because he was tresspassing(potential burglary).
I'd love to have more training as ray says, I think everyone would.

If there was a physical altercation, it would be to break it up. Not to dominate or "beat his ass". The grey area is what if I go to break it up and he pulls a knife, he stabs me or I shoot or both? All hypothetical. I've never had an instance like this happen to me.
I stayed calm. No adrenaline, no emotions.

 

[Duckyou]

Most things can be handled by just being present as a witness - yelling “you ok” or “what are you doing”

that said if it was my neighborhood then I would call the cops

 

[jmfillin1]

Stage20 obviously made the right decisions on site at the time of the event. Everything in the OP is narrative or speculation until the last sentence which carries the only question, requesting Feedback.

"Would I be in the right if the homeowner was attacked to draw or just get into a physical altercation?"

Opinion answer: In general, it does not meet the justification threshold for use of defensive lethal force to protect another person: drawing, presentation or threatening with your firearm would be illegal in Fl. You can lawfully physically intercede (LTL) IOT breakup, defend/protect or to assist the victims egress from an unprovoked attack. To subdue and restrain the attacker can be an "extended application" of force. Your objective can't be to aid the victim into dominating and continue to press the advantage with your "help" to beat his ass .

Disparity in force. Numbers (2 on 1), physical and age differences between aggressor (WWE poster child) and victim senior citizen (70yo) or small boy AND your age/physical characteristics (65yo woman) as a sole person able/willing to intercede; can also be a disparity: it may move the justification meter towards lawful use of deadly force based on the totality of the situation. If your a MMA fighter wanting to intercede, you're on a pretty level field with the WWE aggressor so lethal force (gun) is not justified.

An aggressor can not claim self defense unless it's been determined there was a secession (he quit the fight) and the original victim initiates a continuation. If it becomes original victim +1 pressing the achieved advantage (ass whooping) on 1: that too may be considered a disparity of force and unlawfully excessive.

Laws are Laws and provide framework giudance. Actual applications/determinations by DAs, Juries and Judges deliver interpetions of events when viewed in the context of the Laws. A singular event can interpeted differently by the various cogs within the wheels of Justice. Lawyers provide opinions and quote Case Law.

VMMV

Exactly. Just because a statute or law may seem straightforward doesn't mean it always is, or that it can't be interpreted differently by someone in a position of "authority."

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[Raven]

Time for some OODA loop homework

 

[Big Shrek]

Let the Fuzz deal with him...weekly.
Hope yer buddy has burglar bars on his place.
He probably needs a big dog.