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  • M.O.A.

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    There is a product out there that was developed for car audio called Dyna Mat which is specifically designed to deaden vibration... Somewhere lurking about is a Savage rifle chambered in 30/06 that the entire barrel channel is lined with the stuff fully in contact and attached to the barrel by adhesive. The thing shoots like a laser but every time you pick it up you hear rap music. Loved the rifle. Mc Hammer...not so much. Lmao
     

    wildrider666

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    There is a product out there that was developed for car audio called Dyna Mat which is specifically designed to deaden vibration... Somewhere lurking about is a Savage rifle chambered in 30/06 that the entire barrel channel is lined with the stuff fully in contact and attached to the barrel by adhesive. The thing shoots like a laser but every time you pick it up you hear rap music. Loved the rifle. Mc Hammer...not so much. Lmao
    ROFLMAO, but I want one too.
     

    SAWMAN

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    I would also just add ----> If you just want to tinker...OR...want the self satisfaction of doing it yourself...GREAT...good on ya !! Otherwise,take a good look at some of the Savage guns. Especially the ones designed for "F" Class competition. Some of the ones based on 284Win brass and even the 6.5 Whatever. Some of these guns will most likely get you the range that you desire for less money than you could build one yourself for. Remember also for long range....really long range,you gotta fork out the dough for exceptional glass,rings,a base,AND a bubble level.

    Go to some of the "F"Class sites or the 1000yd bench rest sights. See what guns and/or chamberings they are using. Follow their leed,those guys are in the know. --- SAWMAN
     

    CCHGN

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    Minute of Angle is a sloppy (rounding off numbers) form of Minute of Arc.
    Milliradian commonly called mils in application (circle/6400).

    Since a radian is mathematically defined as the angle formed when the length of a circular arc equals the radius of the circle, a trigonometric milliradian (mrad), is the angle formed when the length of a circular arc equals 1/1000 of the radius of the circle. Since the radian expresses a ratio, it is independent of the units of length used.

    Mil-Dot scopes are marked in angular mils.


    Go here for practical application of Mils and MOA. http://static.scribd.com/docs/d2ke2aetnlp77.pdf

    Thanks, that's what I''ve been reading about lately...the Mil came from artillery, but they base their Mil on the 6400 Milliradians, where shooters apparently use the 6283.2 mils, so that process has it's "rounding" too,,,lol

    what I was asking, was, is one better than the other or is it just a matter of preference? I'm not seeing any advantage of one over the other. I guess what I'm asking is why do some scopes have Mil-dots on the reticle, but MOA on the turrets?
     

    CCHGN

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    And that my friends is why I shoot a .308. Because the ballistics can be memorized out to 1000 yds and trig is not required. Zero at 200 and the scope does the math. Lol

    OK, but are you saying that, the ballistics with MOA? Do you prefer the MOA? I'd imagine so since your "name" is MOA...lol
     

    SAWMAN

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    Remembering also that the mildot is used for ranging a target of known size. If that is your app....get 'er done. However allow me to predict ..... your brain will come very close to self detonation. Rotz-oh-Ruck. --- SAWMAN
     
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    wildrider666

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    what I was asking, was, is one better than the other or is it just a matter of preference? I'm not seeing any advantage of one over the other. I guess what I'm asking is why do some scopes have Mil-dots on the reticle, but MOA on the turrets?

    Mil-dot is just one of many reticle choices. Elevation and windage adjustments on some scopes instructions are not even referred to as MOA Adjustments: just clicks to Zero the scope up/down and left/right. If you do nothing more then zero the rifle with them, MOA is a Moot concept.

    Mil dot subtends an "area of measurement" that YOU equate to a object at distance. Scope MOA adjustments 1/8, 1/4 or 1/2 "clicks" (for non-metric) are rough guides for adjustments until you get into the high quality scope. On the average $200 scope one 1/4 click may be 1/4 MAO, it maybe 1/3 or 1/5. Sometimes the more you adjust the less the you get: 12 clicks only produce 2 and 1/4 instead of a full 3 MOA. This is why you "BOX" the scope and make sure the clicks are accurate and repeatable.

    A Mil-dot scope is a great tool just like a slide rule is. If you know how to use all it can do. If not, you might as well guesstimate. All that said, If you know how to apply Mil-Dot and ballistics why would that person waste money on a low dollar tacticool scope that will not deliver the precision desired?
     

    SAWMAN

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    Scope cant,scope tracking,repeatability,glass quality,and to have an effective mildot system going for you...IMO...you need either a fixed power scope OR a scope that has it's mildot in the FIRST FOCAL PLANE.

    To this day, I feel that in my long range days, I was hampered by my choice of scope. It was/is a Leupold 8.5X25X50mm with target turrets and somewhat fine duplex reticle. Great scope......just not enough. --- SAWMAN
     

    M.O.A.

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    OK, but are you saying that, the ballistics with MOA? Do you prefer the MOA? I'd imagine so since your "name" is MOA...lol

    External ballistics are generally measured in inches which coincidence would have it translate nicely to minutes of angle and because most scopes are calibrated in MOA either 1/4 or 1/8 per click if you know the " drop" and wind drift of a particular load its as simple as ranging the Target, applying the adjustment and sending the round. For instance...a projectile drops 40" at 400 yards...we know that because the click value of our hypothetical optic is 1/4 moa at 100yd then it will be 4 x that value at 400. Therefore it will require 40/1 or 40 clicks "up" to correct for drop. now the really fun part. At 800 yards each " click" moves point of impact 2" so a 80 inch drop would require 40 clicks. Easiest way I can explain it. Milliradian is useful for ranging because it is approximately 3.6 inches at 100 yards or 36" at 1000. Operates on a base 10 system pretty much. Soooo...to make a shot..say you look through your scope and observe a Target that you know to be approx. 6' in height. The distance from top to bottom is 2 mils. You know at that point that your Target is at roughly 1000 yards distance. Your hypothetical projectile will drop say 200" (or 20 minutes of angle) therefore you dial in 50 clicks up and send the round. Technical note...wind and spin drift were not factored in here. Lol

    P.S. as stated above scope cant tracking, moon phase and even a bug ( great excuse BTW ) all come into play.
     
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    wildrider666

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    External ballistics are generally measured in inches which coincidence would have it translate nicely to minutes of angle and because most scopes are calibrated in MOA either 1/4 or 1/8 per click if you know the " drop" and wind drift of a particular load its as simple as ranging the Target, applying the adjustment and sending the round. For instance...a projectile drops 40" at 400 yards...we know that because the click value of our hypothetical optic is 1/4 moa at 100yd then it will be 4 x that value at 400. Therefore it will require 40/1 or 40 clicks "up" to correct for drop. now the really fun part. At 800 yards each " click" moves point of impact 2" so a 80 inch drop would require 40 clicks. Easiest way I can explain it. Milliradian is useful for ranging because it is approximately 3.6 inches at 100 yards or 36" at 1000. Operates on a base 10 system pretty much. Soooo...to make a shot..say you look through your scope and observe a Target that you know to be approx. 6' in height. The distance from top to bottom is 2 mils. You know at that point that your Target is at roughly 1000 yards distance. Your hypothetical projectile will drop say 200" (or 20 minutes of angle) therefore you dial in 50 clicks up and send the round. Technical note...wind and spin drift were not factored in here. Lol

    P.S. as stated above scope cant tracking, moon phase and even a bug ( great excuse BTW ) all come into play.

    This distance is where I add earth rotation into the equation. If you understand this, you know there are no stationary targets, just some you don't have to lead. Here "we" sway to the left while the bullet goes straight (looks to have a right path). Its not just the distance but the "flight time" of the bullet to cover the distance.

    Once you have that down figure in Eötvös effect. However, I think we have exceeded the deer rifle in question.
     

    SAWMAN

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    Add to the equation the Magnus Effect which could be a couple of inches or more at 1000yds. Has anyone's head exploded yet ?? --- SAWMAN
     

    M.O.A.

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    Lmao. External ballistics is a hella sight more entertaining than politics...AND every once in a while you get to study terminal ballistics....if you hit
     

    joe

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    What if its High tide with a full moon?

    I will just stick to the 300 yard range for now. LOL
     

    CCHGN

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    A Mil-dot scope is a great tool just like a slide rule is. If you know how to use all it can do. If not, you might as well guesstimate. All that said, If you know how to apply Mil-Dot and ballistics why would that person waste money on a low dollar tacticool scope that will not deliver the precision desired?

    well, I see all the shooters with range finders and weather guages, etc, so what's to guestimate? I see a video of a Marine sniper in combat and the spotter has a range finder and a ballistic calculator.
     

    CCHGN

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    External ballistics are generally measured in inches which coincidence would have it translate nicely to minutes of angle and because most scopes are calibrated in MOA either 1/4 or 1/8 per click.....

    Oh, ok, so Mil is mainly to find range thru the scope( if you don't have a range finder), yet you have to convert to MOA anyway, so the turret is set in MOA...Got it.

    Ok, so you see a target that fills 1 mil, how do you know if it's a 18" target at 500 yds or a 3' target at 1000?

    Well, from the harmonics lesson, you're slinging a projectile out of a noodle to a moving target( rotation of the earth), when everything in nature is trying block it. Sheesh, it's a wonder anybody hits anything at all...lol
     

    wildrider666

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    Ok, so you see a target that fills 1 mil, how do you know if it's a 18" target at 500 yds or a 3' target at 1000?

    You know the size of common objects and divide or multiply the number it takes to make the mil(s) and you range off that. Charlie's AK is 35 inches or 880mm long, a camel is X tall, a landcruiser rim is 18 inches, a Toyota mechanical is 4485 mm, a window sill is normally X wide/tall. A mature olive tree is 5 meters, A standard road in this crap hole is 10 meters wide, Average adult male indigenous person is 1.8 meters.

    If your hunting other stuff, you know the animal size and do the same thing.
     

    M.O.A.

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    Bottom line...build a solid platform, develop a consistent load specifically matched to that platform that performs within very narrow tolerance with regards to projectile weight and velocity, test untill you are convinced that EVERY round is exiting the muzzle at the same velocity, develop a table for drop and drift based on velocity,average environmental conditions, projectile weight/ballistic coefficient, memorize said table, learn to use the optics as a ranging tool, blow enough rounds downrange to burn out a barrel, replace barrel,...and have fun. Sooner or later everything just kinda happens without a whole lot of excess thought or high tech expensive gadgets.
     
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