A Question for the NFA Crowd

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  • stage20

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    A watch list that includes millions of people is one thing over what `feds suspect you own, but serial numbers for a specific type of 'legally scary' gun is something else. It might also work to your favor for keeping that gun also. I just have yet for anyone to show me a strong positive upside relative to why an SBR is preferred over a braced gun.
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    donr101395

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    A watch list that includes millions of people is one thing over what `feds suspect you own, but serial numbers for a specific type of 'legally scary' gun is something else. It might also work to your favor for keeping that gun also. I just have yet for anyone to show me a strong positive upside relative to why an SBR is preferred over a braced gun.


    Hell, the NFA registry folks are woefully inefficcient. I've had them "lose" my stamps that are several years old a couple of times. I've had them return form1s and form4s because they told me I spelled my name wrong. It wasn't, it's just not the most common spelling of it.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Hell, the NFA registry folks are woefully inefficcient. I've had them "lose" my stamps that are several years old a couple of times. I've had them return form1s and form4s because they told me I spelled my name wrong. It wasn't, it's just not the most common spelling of it.
    They can really screw things up and I am not sure if they have put all of what they have in digital form. A local gunsmith I know really got put through hell for 3 days by the ATF and it was their screw up. He has the right manufacturers license from them to make silencers and he normally does not do full auto weapons repair or any dealing at all with them. The shop does not have any FA guns there. Apparently as he understood it the ATF had lost through paper work the location of a registered M16 and some of that paper work had ended up in his file. An agent showed up and went through everything in his shop. They obviously did not find an M16. they gave him a hard time over some old pistol frame-receivers he had, but otherwise other than worried about losing his business he was ok with them.
    According to Forgotten weapons, their records of older machine guns are a mess. But for anything recent I would not count on them not being able to by looking at their records to connect your name with a gun that you registered with them. If there is a screw up it could they have you name and think you own something that you do not.
    All the better reason not to be in their record books.
     

    Little Jack

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    Hell, the NFA registry folks are woefully inefficcient. I've had them "lose" my stamps that are several years old a couple of times. I've had them return form1s and form4s because they told me I spelled my name wrong. It wasn't, it's just not the most common spelling of it.
    They're bad with running CC numbers. Send it back saying it's wrong but they just entered it incorrectly. I got a form back with a naked stamp attached to it and no signature. Had forms returned with three "wrong" firearm information that I pulled from the form 3 I had received it on. Received back BOTH copies of an approved form 4. Had them cash the check but they didn't notify me the forms were damaged...
     

    FrommerStop

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    They're bad with running CC numbers. Send it back saying it's wrong but they just entered it incorrectly. I got a form back with a naked stamp attached to it and no signature. Had forms returned with three "wrong" firearm information that I pulled from the form 3 I had received it on. Received back BOTH copies of an approved form 4. Had them cash the check but they didn't notify me the forms were damaged...
    More reasons for me just plain not wanting to deal with them.
    Overall they were never rated very highly in any regard among federal agencies They also enforce convoluted taxing regulations for guns, alcohol and tobacco.

    I would like to own suppressors, but I can get by with CCI quiet ammo and wear hearing protection when using my other guns.
     

    wildrider666

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    A watch list that includes millions of people is one thing over what `feds suspect you own, but serial numbers for a specific type of 'legally scary' gun is something else. It might also work to your favor for keeping that gun also. I just have yet for anyone to show me a strong positive upside relative to why an SBR is preferred over a braced gun.

    Positive for SBR over Braced pistol: Because "Bumpstocks". Bumpstocks were 100% "Accessories" and there was never any question of its Status. No Congressional action/vote, changed it, the President knee jerked a comment after a mass murder and DOJ changes Congresses written Law definition of "machinegun" while stating their subordinate Agency (BATFE) was "wrong" based on the "new definition DOJ just wrote! Then they were retroactively BANNED because of the prohibition on new machineguns for civilians. Stroke of a pen from non elected asshats.

    Braces, described in Requests for evaluation/category Interpretations were presented as an aid for persons with physical limitations. Braces have been subject to several BATFE "interpetations" regarding use already. A Ban may be be unlikely but restrictions could be applied as easily as bumpstocks were killed. Got a Docs note/medical eval? Possible AOW classification just like pistols with rifled barrels are AOWs when a VFG is installed Per BATFE Memo! The $5 fee would probably be waived for persons with disabilities to keep that issue out of Court. All it takes is "use" in a high visibility mass shooting to put pen to paper.

    Another? How about the 5.56 "Straight rifling" FA Reformation shorty "Firearm? It Was! Now BATFE says its a "Non NFA" SBS. WTF is a Non NFA SBS you ask? Well, the short answer is whatever they want it to be and with restriction the BATFE desides. Currently, owners/possessors can't move it across State lines and no transfers of ownership is allowed until BATFE figures it out and writes..... (wait for it) ........ New Law!

     

    FrommerStop

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    Positive for SBR over Braced pistol: Because "Bumpstocks". Bumpstocks were 100% "Accessories" and there was never any question of its Status. No Congressional action/vote, changed it, the President knee jerked a comment after a mass murder and DOJ changes Congresses written Law definition of "machinegun" while stating their subordinate Agency (BATFE) was "wrong" based on the "new definition DOJ just wrote! Then they were retroactively BANNED because of the prohibition on new machineguns for civilians. Stroke of a pen from non elected asshats.

    Braces, described in Requests for evaluation/category Interpretations were presented as an aid for persons with physical limitations. Braces have been subject to several BATFE "interpetations" regarding use already. A Ban may be be unlikely but restrictions could be applied as easily as bumpstocks were killed. Got a Docs note/medical eval? Possible AOW classification just like pistols with rifled barrels are AOWs when a VFG is installed Per BATFE Memo! The $5 fee would probably be waived for persons with disabilities to keep that issue out of Court. All it takes is "use" in a high visibility mass shooting to put pen to paper.

    Another? How about the 5.56 "Straight rifling" FA Reformation shorty "Firearm? It Was! Now BATFE says its a "Non NFA" SBS. WTF is a Non NFA SBS you ask? Well, the short answer is whatever they want it to be and with restriction the BATFE desides. Currently, owners/possessors can't move it across State lines and no transfers of ownership is allowed until BATFE figures it out and writes..... (wait for it) ........ New Law!

    On possible future reversal of arm braces legality. If it happens you simply remove the brace and likely as pistol a the gun is fine. They have no record of you owning any of that. Probably you could eventually put a 16 inch barrel on the gun and make a rifle also. One can also put an extension on the barrel to make it 16 inches. Or do nothing. It is most likely that many kept their bump stocks. There was really no way for the ATF to verify it. I had people tell me that they kept theirs and hit them on family farm land elsewhere.
    Firing the AR with just the padded buffer tube. He is apparently using a sling also. i might do that with a 5.56, but would not care to do that with in 7.62x39
    1587926673996.png
     

    Murfpcola

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    So somewhat more related to the OPs question. If you made a Bullpup or similar with a 16” barrel that was less than 26” overall, it would be an SBR? Trying to interpret that stuff makes my head hurt.
     
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    Little Jack

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    So somewhat more related to the OPs question. If you made a Bullpup or similar with a 16” barrel that was less than 26” overall, it would be an SBR? Trying to interpret that stuff makes my head hurt.

    Yes. Total is under 26" so it's an SBR. Tavor is close. The original model had a thick butt pad to help meet OAL requirements.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Besides the NFA, the ability for the regulating agency to be able to issue opinions and re interpretations as de facto "law" is bullshit.
    de facto "law" is bullshit.
    It is how the CRF or code of federal regulations get written. The laws are enacted and the agency charged with enforcing that law decides how they will do it and sometime can turn the original intent of the lawmakers upside down.
    Federal agencies can issue new regulations that become federal law after a comment period. This includes EPA and Osha for example that tried outlaw lead ammunition use and make onerous regulations for ammunition and powder in stores.
     
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    Rebel_Rider1969

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    On possible future reversal of arm braces legality. If it happens you simply remove the brace and likely as pistol a the gun is fine. They have no record of you owning any of that. Probably you could eventually put a 16 inch barrel on the gun and make a rifle also. One can also put an extension on the barrel to make it 16 inches. Or do nothing. It is most likely that many kept their bump stocks. There was really no way for the ATF to verify it. I had people tell me that they kept theirs and hit them on family farm land elsewhere.
    Firing the AR with just the padded buffer tube. He is apparently using a sling also. i might do that with a 5.56, but would not care to do that with in 7.62x39
    View attachment 83543

    If you have a bad tooth the x39 would fix it, lol.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    ... The ambiguity is whether it is 16" barrel OR 26" overall length. If I read Title 18 correctly, if I modify an AR rifle to produce something that still exceeds 26" overall, it would NOT be an SBR (barrel change perhaps).
    ...

    If you modify an AR 'rifle' that started life as a stripped lower and was built as a pistol first, then you have more options. The lower can have the stock removed and either left with a naked buffer tube or add a brace. Then replace the upper with whatever barrel you want. If the OAL is over 26", add a VFG with no worries. If it's less than 26" and you add a VFG, you need a $5 AOW tax stamp.

    If the 'AR rifle' started life as a rifle, then the moment it gets a barrel less than 16", it's an SBR. The moment it's functioning OAL goes below 26" (regardless of barrel length), it's an SBR.

    For the AR, measure from the permanently affixed end of the barrel (either muzzle crown or end of permanently affixed muzzle device) to the end of the buffer tube.

    My opinion/advice:
    All stripped lowers should be built as pistols first.

    Forget the BS about tax stamps and asking the BATFE permission to travel with your weapon: add a brace to your pistol lower, make whatever barrel combo you want, and forget about it.
     

    FrommerStop

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    If you modify an AR 'rifle' that started life as a stripped lower and was built as a pistol first, then you have more options. The lower can have the stock removed and either left with a naked buffer tube or add a brace. Then replace the upper with whatever barrel you want. If the OAL is over 26", add a VFG with no worries. If it's less than 26" and you add a VFG, you need a $5 AOW tax stamp.

    If the 'AR rifle' started life as a rifle, then the moment it gets a barrel less than 16", it's an SBR. The moment it's functioning OAL goes below 26" (regardless of barrel length), it's an SBR.

    For the AR, measure from the permanently affixed end of the barrel (either muzzle crown or end of permanently affixed muzzle device) to the end of the buffer tube.

    My opinion/advice:
    All stripped lowers should be built as pistols first.

    Forget the BS about tax stamps and asking the BATFE permission to travel with your weapon: add a brace to your pistol lower, make whatever barrel combo you want, and forget about it.
    What you state is a good summary and right on.
    MY question for all is if you start with a brand new receiver no one really knows what you first built it as. A receiver I am thinking of using for pistol was purchased as below. If I want some more lowers I was thinking of finishing an 80%. If one does that I guess the ATF has to take your word how it was first used. On the 80% there is also no serial number either. I have purchased a lower from some one at an event and I do not know for certain if it ever had any upper on it much less if it was rifle.

    1587958065868.png
     

    TacticalPizzas

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    Not going to read everyone’s responses but it would still be an SBR. What it would allow is the mounting of a Vertical foregrip because it would be considered a “firearm” not a “pistol” much like the shockwave “shotguns” still can’t have a shoulder stock though. Pistol braces are okay though. That said the ATF recently released an opinion letter stating that pistol braces do not count towards the overall length of the forearm because they are not required for function. The buffer tube on an AR does count because the firearm cannot function without it, however a buffer tube on an AK or anything not requiring it, does not count towards overall length. Of course the atf neglects to admit that all firearms laws are unconstitutional but we all know they’ll never admit that.
     

    TacticalPizzas

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    Oh I forgot to mention that shoulder stocks count for overall length because they are required for shouldering. Not that it makes a difference, I just think it’s finny they find it necessary to mention it in the letter.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Oh I forgot to mention that shoulder stocks count for overall length because they are required for shouldering. Not that it makes a difference, I just think it’s finny they find it necessary to mention it in the letter.
    From what I understand it is the total length counting also that of the shoulder stock extended for folders. Some AKs with the stock folded are less than 26 inches like for an underfolder AK.
     

    TacticalPizzas

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    Yes st
    From what I understand it is the total length counting also that of the shoulder stock extended for folders. Some AKs with the stock folded are less than 26 inches like for an underfolder AK.
    yes stocks are counted in their extended length, a stock is considered required equipment because a rifle or shotgun is designed to be fired from the shoulder requiring the stock. A pistol (by legal definition) is designed to be fired from one hand, so the pistol brace is not a required part of the firearm. I’m not talking opinion I’m just paraphrasing the atf letter that I read.
     

    MrFish

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    It is choices of course. But what does the SBR do for you that the arm brace does not do.
    For me it is more than just two hundred dollars as I understand it. I would have to form a trust or maybe get approval from the Sheriff. I really do not know first hand how to do it and what do I get in return for jumping those hoops. I will when the time comes to register may if possible do that for anything that I purchased at a gunstore. Depends. I can also say I do not own them anymore. Then they need cause for a warrant to search. You can not say you lost or sold a NFA weapon not have to offer proof of that fact.
    Perhaps buying tax stamp is a joy all in itself.

    You don't have to form a trust and you just mail a copy of the Form 1 to the Sheriff. CLEO doesn't have to sign off anymore.
     
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