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  • CCHGN

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    I know there's some folks who are into long range shooting and more folks who are interested in getting into it. I's hoping to get a discussion going about it.

    I knwo there's alot of areas to it, but what I'm wonderijng about now is this: harmonics.

    I've seen videos on Youtube that animated the shock waves and nodes and anti-nodes(where the nodes are places of no vibration and anti-nodes are the places of the greatest vibration) when a rifle fires and the goal is to make a node be on the end of the rifle, at the muzzle.

    What I'm wondering is, is there place where I can take my rifle and they can place it in a medium or attach sensors and map out my rifles harmonics?


    What're y'alls' thoughts on this or anythinge else about LRS?
     

    wildrider666

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    Just some food for thought. There are many different ideas on what "long range" is and that is also driven by what the target is and the results desired. LRS to a hunter of elk is different from that of a prairie dog hunter. Bench rest is all together another class. "Harmonics" is just one term for vibration that shooters have delt with for years. You free float, you pressure point, you use a boss, you Cryo the action and barrel, you rebarrel, you heavy barrel, you recrown, or you just play with the ammo. All in search of the XX. There are several parts to LRS besides the firearm and ammo. The shooter and the environment are also major factors. If you really want to get a one stop practical reference get a copy of: http://www.paladin-press.com/product/The_Ultimate_Sniper/Sniping.

    There are many different Forums out there with tons of info within their selected "long range" applications.Below is a general one.
    Have fun. WR

    http://longrangeshooter.com/
     

    CCHGN

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    Thanks, I also found this one: http://forum.snipershide.com/


    Yeah, I know there's ALOT of info to know and different classes of LRS. Sniping, for instance, is more of a military type operation, where getting into and out of a place to take the shot is more important than the shot.


    The more research I do, the more questions I have. From what I('ve read, no matter what set up you have, if the end of that barrel is flapping ( because it's in the middle of a anti-node {most vibration}), it;'s gonna throw that bullet off. Surely it can;t be a mtter of trial and error. Seems to me there should be some place that has something set up that will put any rifle into some medium(water, gel, high speed cameras, etc) or put sensors on all along the rifle and then shoot it and be able to record the vibration pattern and find the nodes and anti-nodes.


    This is the video that got me thinking:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h407yVskVeM
     

    wildrider666

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    The recommendation on the book was more for all the shooting skills then the field craft and is a valuable resource for any shooter/hunter who desires to improve his craft. Its not about "vertical targets".

    Back on vibs and harmonics: I watched the vid, good info but you don't want to focus on a tree and miss the forest. As the vid says people work on and adjust the harmonics all the time and just do not know that that is what is happening as a result of their effort on stocks bedding, barrels and reloading.
    Screw the Vib Waves as vid states AND replace the word harmonics with "accuracy" you will see it fits perfectly. EVERYTHING he states to fix/adjust harmonics are things that shooters have been doing to firearms for decades to achieve better accuracy.

    You must also understand that harmonics "nodes" are moving targets. They will be at different points with a cold barrel and a hot barrel as that affect the rigidness of the action/barrel. http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/barrel-movement.htm

    I do disagree with the vid that any firearm can made be a great shooter. Since great shooter is not defined and if you replace everything but the action you are really not shooting the original firearm.

    I posted this months ago in the forum: http://gulfcoastgunforum.com/showthread.php?35-Accuracy-basics-with-a-bad-gun. It may help your search.

    Back in the day (and I mean way back), we used a collet and weights, and moved it up and down the barrel to find a sweet spot. some folks tried a very thick rubber donut and moved it back and forth. There was some benefit but looked like hell, you don't see this on todays rifles.
    A possible fix for your harmonics issue:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhRIebOY4Jk
    http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/sscutaway.htm
    (I think all this does is move a pressure point fwd or back)

    WR
     

    SAWMAN

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    Respectfully(hope it's ok this time),you guys do what you want re. solving the "problem". Personally .......... I will attempt to try NOT to over think it.

    Middle of the road ballistics(internal,external,and terminal)knowledge,and alot of common sense, sits fine with me. "Nodes"...?... I don't need no stinkin' nodes. --- SAWMAN
     

    TennJeep1618

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    LOL Bill. I'm with you. Past a certain point it becomes work instead of fun.

    I'm in the same boat. I will play with bedding the rifle, replacing the trigger, working up a good handload and maybe even rebarreling and truing the action. Beyond that, I would probably sell the rifle and start from scratch if I wasn't getting the results I realistically expected.

    If you want to get the last "nth" degree of accuracy out of a gun, then by all means do whatever is necessary and enjoy it. I just never see myself getting to that point.

    That being said, I very much enjoy hearing all the technical discussions on the subject and I strive everyday to learn as much as I can.
     

    M.O.A.

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    I never worried about harmonics. Just load development and seating length. If you have a desire to work with barrel whip just do what I suggested and fold a matchbook to stress the barrel...or full length bed it. I'm sure there is a lab somewhere with that equipment but by the time you paid for the testing...I suspect you could have built a few really nice rifles.
     

    CCHGN

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    My thing is this: I'm working on turning a deer rifle into a LRS. Now, I can float the barrel, pillar bed it, glass bed it, etc, but Like Rex says in the vid, if that barrel whip is slinging those bullets all over the place, nothing I do is gonna help. I'd like to know before I spend any more money or time on a "dead horse".
    Someone said that they'd get rid of it and build another, but I wouldn't let a bad gun out in circulation. I wouldn't put that problem on somebody else.
    I'm going to find a place that does that and get back on this.

    Mean time, here's another question: I know the difference between MOA and Miliradian, but why have two different measurements? Is one better than the other?
     

    joe

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    Are you trying to solve a certain problem or just curious?

    OOPs posted a little late. If it shoots good now go with it, if not have a gun smith look at it, rebarrel it or sell it to a pawnshop.

    As others have mentioned their are lots of different facets to LRS. Way to many IMO. I do not follow this rule very often but the old KISS rule may apply Keep It Simple Stupid.

    Boss system
    http://www.browning.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?id=107

    I have seen these before could be gimmick
    http://www.limbsaver.com/firearms/sharpshooter.php
     
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    TennJeep1618

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    My thing is this: I'm working on turning a deer rifle into a LRS. Now, I can float the barrel, pillar bed it, glass bed it, etc, but Like Rex says in the vid, if that barrel whip is slinging those bullets all over the place, nothing I do is gonna help. I'd like to know before I spend any more money or time on a "dead horse".
    Someone said that they'd get rid of it and build another, but I wouldn't let a bad gun out in circulation. I wouldn't put that problem on somebody else.
    I'm going to find a place that does that and get back on this.

    Mean time, here's another question: I know the difference between MOA and Miliradian, but why have two different measurements? Is one better than the other?

    What kind of length/contour is your barrel? If you have enough initial length, you could do the very low tech option and cut down the barrel incrementally until you get the accuracy level you want.

    I realize this is not an ideal solution by any means, but if I understand the issue correctly, I think it would work. Please educate me otherwise if that is not correct.
     

    CCHGN

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    Yeah, I've learned that I must leave this deer rifle as a very accurate deer rifle(it will be for sale come deer season) and must start from scratch. I just want to use the latest technology and be as smart and efficient as I can. According to the article, having too rigid a stock causes more barrel whip. That's good to know.

    This is what they suggest:
    1. Add weight to the muzzle to slow down the muzzle movement
    2. High pressure/high velocity load to make the muzzle exit time earlier
    3. Faster burning powder to have the bullet gain velocity early and make the exit time earlier
    4. Longer barrel to slow down the muzzle movement

    Sounds about right to me. I will be getting the tuner for my rifle.
     

    CCHGN

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    LOL Bill. I'm with you. Past a certain point it becomes work instead of fun.

    Well, imo, like playing a guitar or getting off the grid, et al, alot of stuff that's fun and rewarding is also hard and technical, but it's worth it, if you're into it.
     

    wildrider666

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    Minute of Angle is a sloppy (rounding off numbers) form of Minute of Arc.
    Milliradian commonly called mils in application (circle/6400).

    Since a radian is mathematically defined as the angle formed when the length of a circular arc equals the radius of the circle, a trigonometric milliradian (mrad), is the angle formed when the length of a circular arc equals 1/1000 of the radius of the circle. Since the radian expresses a ratio, it is independent of the units of length used.

    Mil-Dot scopes are marked in angular mils.


    Go here for practical application of Mils and MOA. http://static.scribd.com/docs/d2ke2aetnlp77.pdf
     

    M.O.A.

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    And that my friends is why I shoot a .308. Because the ballistics can be memorized out to 1000 yds and trig is not required. Zero at 200 and the scope does the math. Lol
     
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