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  • SAWMAN

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    Why is it that those "in the know" all seem to be using,carring,teaching,optics on pistols (even the shorter barreled ones),while at the same time poo-pooing a viable laser sighting/targeting system. Especially like the LaserMax,guide rod laser,for the Glocks and others ?? ---- SAWMAN
     

    oneshot

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    Well bill I guess I'm not in the know, I haven't seen any of these things really work when you are being attacked with in arms length as most attacks happen. And yes they do have a place in the scheme of things. I know i'm going to start some thing. nothing beats good trigger time. Just my 10 cents jj
     

    SAWMAN

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    You are absolutely right jj.
    I have found in my travels,talking to people,and reading "after action" reports of real shootings (not the fake TV shit) that most shootings take place at extremely close range. The ranges differ and I would love to see a write up of the shooting ranges broken down in actual distance. As in ---> 0-3yds,3-7yds,7-10yds,10-15yds,15-25yds,and >25yds.
    Other things that I never hear discussed or have read any figures on is - -> once you come up to eye level with your pistol,how long does does it take to acquire your optics dot,metallic sights,or projected laser dot ?? Do you have to place the optics dot in the center of the window before you shoot ?? If you shoot with the dot off center will you hit your target ??
    Obviously,using metallic sights you have to align front with rear . . . then align with target. Using a visable laser,the shooter does not even have to come up to eye level. Of course it must be powered ON.
    With the optics or visable laser systems,there is the reliability factor. Mainly their power source. Then there is the question of sturdiness.
    Your pick . . your choice. Whatever you choose,as jj sez,nothing beats trigger time (PRACTICE). --- SAWMAN
     
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    donr101395

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    Typically because most people acquire a day visible laser slower than a red dot. Also a laser is more susceptible to bright lighting than a quality red dot. Lasers have there place, but are usually more effective with NVGs.
     

    FrankT

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    My primary carry is a G26 and always had the guiderod laser, it is great. I do first track with the sights then to the laser, cant imagine a red dot on my carry weapon, too big and not as fast tracking.
     

    donr101395

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    cant imagine a red dot on my carry weapon, too big and not as fast tracking.

    That is where you're very wrong Frank. There is a learning curve initially, but a red dot tracks just as fast and with movement tracks faster. The size isn't noticeable with a proper holster. There is a reason that a lot of specialized units are using them and a lot of police departments are now authorizing them and it's not because they are slower and a bigger liability.
     

    oneshot

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    Don't know how meany people I have worked with, over the years, I,m talking about self defense not comp. shooting, all ways start out with presentation and trigger control and sight alignment. then work in to movement all of this is in a bout 0-to 10 ft. at some point Ii will ask them where they sights are and they realized they are not using them but just point shooting but as they get back more they start using the sights. Now any one that wants to challenge me on this bring your gun and ammo. I didn't come up with this it is a natural thing that will happen with the right training. I'm just old band around to long, I talk to any one that I can that has been in a shooting and ask question,s about what did they remember, only ones that remember using they sights are ones that had time too use them. Just my 5 cents jj What i'm talking about will take place in 2.5 sec or less any thing more and you lose.
     
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    wildrider666

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    My non expert opinion FWIW: People should be sufficiently trained in acquiring their standard handgun presentation including sight picture. Then "Co-witness" Irons with electro optic or laser. You go for a normal sight picture until the "dot" dominates on the threat/target. "If" Dot fails or not turned on: you continue through the shot(s) using Irons. Optic Dots are on "your end" but lasers are projected down range. If laser dot is on you target at 10 yards that's great but if your off target and the backstop the laser hits is far away or defused bushes: you may be slowed down "searching" for the laser's dot INSTEAD of aligning Irons which brings the Laser dot closer or onto the target. Even if there is no rear sight on a particular configuration, point shooting techniques will get you/Dot on target. Once reflex optic Dots are properly Set: your dominant eye (or both eyes open) can be off center in relation to the Irons/Dot but the Dot is "sighted in" and the projectile will hit where sighted no matter were dot is within the screen view NOT where your eye(s) physical allignment is. Lasers still allow you to steer the muzzle without being aligned behind the firearm. There's discussion on optic Dot and Laser signatures/back azimuth targeting also.

    Dots are sized by MOA displacement. A 3MOA would be smaller than a 6MOA. Since most defensive handgun work is "relatively close range" a bigger dot better: 6MOA subtends a 1.5 inch dot on a 25 yard target. Brightness setting is a factor too but you could have a big or small bright dot, battery life varies with settings.

    You don't need a laser or dot if you can't hit up close, you need range time. Dots and lasers are not a replacement for iron sight skills: they are an "enhancement of POA acquisition, eliminates one mechanical alignment point and replaces what I consider "fine sight picture jitters (at distance)" with Point and shoot. I hear newbies and especially ladies that want the easier path: straight to laser or optics. Because...TV/movies. I was also disappointed when I heard mil recruits were doing initial rifle quals with "optics" instead of Irons. It started some time after "Time Out Cards" but I wasn't thrilled with that Matel thing either. Lol

    I'm "in process" working with a Romeo 1 Dot. Haven't mounted it on a carry gun yet, might not. I'm an IWB guy that spends a lot of time outside. Haven't read anything for salt and sweat environments. I won't switch from IWB just for the "Dot".
     

    donr101395

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    Thanks, I will just stay with what I have since I am very comfortable with it.


    Absolutely nothing wrong with that either. I switch between a 1911 with iron sights and a red dot Glock19 for my edc.
    I just get frustrated when someone without a knowledge base starts talking about the shortcomings of it without experience. I've been shooting and carrying Glocks with red dots mounted since Feb 2010 and co-taught what to my knowledge was the first red dot specific pistol class offered anywhere in Dec 2010. A lot of people had dabbled in them, but until then no one had taught anything specific to red dots on pistols. Since then I have shot a couple hundred thousand rounds with a variety of pistols wearing a red dot.
    In my experience older eyes having a hard time picking up a front sight is where a RDS on a pistol really shines as well as distances greater than 15 meters. Inside of 15 meters I see very little difference between irons and RDS guns.
     

    SAWMAN

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    Soooooo . . . your recommending a red dot for the shooting sports . . OR . . for a normal shooters EDC gun ??? --- SAWMAN
     

    donr101395

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    Soooooo . . . your recommending a red dot for the shooting sports . . OR . . for a normal shooters EDC gun ??? --- SAWMAN



    EDC, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The technology has improved greatly in the last 10 years. The caveat being a quality red dot, it's not for those wanting to run $29 red dots and thinking they are "just as good".
     

    RidgeRunner

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    What is your opinion of the quality cutoff / starting point for a red dot? What do you run, if you've been using them for 10 years you must know a little about them. I really like them but have never gotten above a vortex viper, and it is ok for the plinking I do, however I don't think it rates very high on the list.
    Also I am guessing on EDC the dot stays on all the time? or shake awake?
     

    donr101395

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    What is your opinion of the quality cutoff / starting point for a red dot? What do you run, if you've been using them for 10 years you must know a little about them. I really like them but have never gotten above a vortex viper, and it is ok for the plinking I do, however I don't think it rates very high on the list.
    Also I am guessing on EDC the dot stays on all the time? or shake awake?



    Right now the only ones I would recommend for carry are either the RMR, SRO, or Leupold Deltapoint Pro. The Holosun 507/508 series look promising, but haven't been out long enough to give a thumbs up. Of all those the RMR is my personal favorite, but the Deltapoint is an great sight without breaking the bank.
    I use the Vortex and Burris on .22 plinkers. The battery life on the Vortex is horrible and it uses a non-standard battery from any other sight I own; 2025 vs 2032 every other watch battery sight uses. The Burris just isn't durable enough IMO for be considered for anything other than a .22 or fun range toy.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Right now the only ones I would recommend for carry are either the RMR, SRO, or Leupold Deltapoint Pro. The Holosun 507/508 series look promising, but haven't been out long enough to give a thumbs up. Of all those the RMR is my personal favorite, but the Deltapoint is an great sight without breaking the bank.
    I use the Vortex and Burris on .22 plinkers. The battery life on the Vortex is horrible and it uses a non-standard battery from any other sight I own; 2025 vs 2032 every other watch battery sight uses. The Burris just isn't durable enough IMO for be considered for anything other than a .22 or fun range toy.
    The holosun seems to use the same slide mill cut and screw pattern and I see the SI people that were one of groups early on pushing combat RDS are sort of saying they will deal with the holosun, but the RMR still seems to be the preferred. I am hoping the competition with the holosun will make the other slide mounted RDS companies lower their pricing.
    The RDS are more for precision shooting in my opinion. Not really needed at bad breath distances.
     
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    Quite frankly, I stick with night sights or even standard non-illuminated sights. At close range confrontations, aiming is not always possible. I have practiced enough point shooting that I do not have to rely on sights even out to 25 yards to hit my target. Center ass is not hard to do. Head shots are a little more challenging and may require some aiming. If someone is into speed shooting, I can see the purpose for using a red-dot optic. I do not see the point in using a laser. If you can see what you are pointing at, why would you need one?
     

    FrommerStop

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    Typically because most people acquire a day visible laser slower than a red dot. Also a laser is more susceptible to bright lighting than a quality red dot. Lasers have there place, but are usually more effective with NVGs.

    One thing that laser will do is you can shoot the gun accurately without having the gun aligned with you face. but still must expose enough of yourself to see where it is pointed so I am not sure if there is a benefit for say shooting around a corner. I put a laser on a small pocket .32 ACP and found at 50 ft with the gun at hip level, but braced against something that 3 out of 5 shots hit the black of a 50 ft NRA pistol target that i guess was 3 inches. Suggests might make this sightless pistol viable for head shooting snakes, but I am not sure if it will help with combat against people. The laser can be used for intimidation. If the dot is on someone, and they see it they know you can shoot them. I have seen videos of LEOs doing that in the past.
     

    donr101395

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    One thing that laser will do is you can shoot the gun accurately without having the gun aligned with you face. but still must expose enough of yourself to see where it is pointed so I am not sure if there is a benefit for say shooting around a corner. I put a laser on a small pocket .32 ACP and found at 50 ft with the gun at hip level, but braced against something that 3 out of 5 shots hit the black of a 50 ft NRA pistol target that i guess was 3 inches. Suggests might make this sightless pistol viable for head shooting snakes, but I am not sure if it will help with combat against people. The laser can be used for intimidation. If the dot is on someone, and they see it they know you can shoot them. I have seen videos of LEOs doing that in the past.
    Absolutely it will let you do that, but the intimidation factor is internet folk lore. Much like racking a shotgun will scare them away. I'm not anti-laser by any means. My G26 has a light and laser. They have their uses, but they aren't a substitute for solid fundamentals which too many want to use them to do.

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     

    donr101395

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    To answer the OP’s question, The biggest problem with visible lasers is the lack of quality holster options, and quality laser units themselves that are durable and able to hold the end-user adjustable zero, ergonomic switching,non-obtrusive size, and affordability. Even then the laser is not as useful as a miniaturized red dot sight, and only really excels as a non-direct aiming system such as shooting with NVGs, gas masks, shields, etc. lasers are primarily a backup sighting system, not a primary.


    Yep, exactly.
     
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