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Level 3 Armor plates, plastic vs steel and 5.56x45 loads.

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  • FrommerStop

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    For non-ceramic level 3 plates I have been doing some reading and youtube watching.

    It seems without enhancement plates that pass the basic level 3 NJ rating: 55 grain M193 from a 20 inch barrel will punch through a steel plate, but the slower 62 grain penetrator M855 will be stopped. Use a Plastic UHMWPE rated to level 3 and it is the opposite. The penetrator 62 grain passes through and the faster M193 is stopped by the laminated plastic.
    There is a very cheap chinese made level IV (Not sure of where it was rated) composite ceramic UHMWPE that weighs 5.5 lbs making the youtube circuit that stops both. The back deformation is not too bad from a single hit with 5.56. Start pounding it with multiple hits, especially from .308 and while it is not immediately penetrated I suspect the wearer will feel like a very strong man is pounding him with large hammer.

    Do any of the forum members here have any thoughts or insight relative to these vests and what have their solutions or choices been?
     

    wildrider666

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    You might wat to look at DSM Dyneema. Dutch firm that's had polycab-ish ballistic and stab vest for years. Probably what the Chinese stole (Lol). I recall it stops 7.62×39 and 7.62×51 but the devil is which cartridges. The 5.56 is faster too. With ALL of them I would only TRUST NIJ Standards. I thing a "new" Standard is due out soon.

    Link to Standards PDF
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij...FjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1xithu6jlpFr0nVbDB2ATt
     

    FrommerStop

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    You might wat to look at DSM Dyneema. Dutch firm that's had polycab-ish ballistic and stab vest for years. Probably what the Chinese stole (Lol). I recall it stops 7.62×39 and 7.62×51 but the devil is which cartridges. The 5.56 is faster too. With ALL of them I would only TRUST NIJ Standards. I thing a "new" Standard is due out soon.

    Link to Standards PDF
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij...FjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1xithu6jlpFr0nVbDB2ATt
    The new standard will be interesting. It seems everybody and their brothers are making level III+ plates that appears not to have a NJ standard.

    Relative to light wt plates it seems the gold standard is: HESCO with a price of about $550 a plate with an internet site of https://www.hesco.com/ For their plates I have not found too much in the way of independent testing, but some of the vendors are out of stock suggesting that it sells well. They demand proof that you re a law abiding citizen like getting a copy of your CCW before they will sell to you.
    Relative to trust. I want to see chronographed loads from 20 inch barreled ARs fired into them by people not connected to the company or vendors. If it stops all commonly available AR loads it will stop an AK47 or 74 and likely fmj .308.
     

    FrommerStop

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    I looked up Dyneema and it is a material.

    Dyneema®
    With you when it matters

    Dyneema®, the world's strongest fiber™, is respected as the premium brand for Ultra-High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMwPE), and we manufacture and sell products in several forms. DSM is committed to building a strong brand for the benefit of our authorised users across the value chain and developers across the globe. The Dyneema® trademark or logo promoted on an end product provides end users with a guarantee that they are investing in performance and quality.
     

    FrommerStop

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    A good read, current info and informative Links. It has a little info on "polys" and where they stand in the pecking order. Quick answer on polys is 5.56 will zip right through.

    https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-body-armor/#toc4
    On the polys it seems to depend on the presence of a penetrator tip for some of them. The light wt plates if they have both ceramic and poly seems to stop any 5.56 round that is out there.
     

    FrommerStop

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    I’m not super knowledgeable on the topic, but can tell you the NIJ testing standards are out of date. I’m not concerned about .30-06 AP, I’m more concerned with M193, M855, and 7.62x39 MSC, so the “special threat” ratings mean more to me, along with multi-hit.

    What you stated in the OP about M193 vs steel and M855 vs poly is correct. The latest and greatest is the poly-ceramic composite hybrids. The Hesco plates are legit. So is Velocity Systems if you can afford it. A good source of armor and info is ATArmor

    What I look for in a plate is Sapi-cut, multi-curve, special threat ratings, and multi-hit protection. The NIJ rating is below all of that.
    I believe that 7.62x39 MSC means mild steel core. Just about Everyone is adamant that it is not AP, but I see it mentioned for ammo that is of concern relative to plate penetration. Does it penetrate better than the lead core. That sort of ammo not being imported and so is harder to get now days, but it is still around.
     

    FrommerStop

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    It’s similar to M855 as far as not being Armor Piercing but still of concern. You’d be surprised how much of the import 7.62 will attract a magnet


    Deadly Threat Defense LLC
    Firearms Training near Pensacola, FL
    With exception of the Yugo made 7.62x39, most of the imported ammunition while not being steel core will attract a magnet due to the steel jacket and there are all sorts of misunderstandings about such as it cratering a properly hardened 1/2" AR500 plate.
    I know of at least one very knowledgeable LEO over at paragon pride that was looking for some of it. I think does well against autobody sheet metal when compared to lead core steel jacket.
    Next time you see some of the magnet attracting 7.62x39. Cut the bullet tip off and check core. You will find it is lead.
     

    FrommerStop

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    You might be right, I haven’t put that much thought into it. I know that any range with steel targets won’t let you shoot it if it’s magnetic. I’m not sure how prolific the actual steel core stuff is in the US anymore, but I’ll keep it on my list of attributes for now


    Deadly Threat Defense LLC
    Firearms Training near Pensacola, FL
    Part of the issues:
    Indoor ranges particularly will not let you shoot magnetic ammo and parts of california has issues with such, especially if it was steel core. The issue is fire. Relative to the steel targets and back stops, it is possible that the neither the targets or steel are up to it relative to damage. but also there are the issues of rebounding fragments and for the indoor range, there is fire. Also in dry brush areas there is fire. Steel jackets and and steel cores can strike sparks. Indoor ranges often accumulate unburnt powder that is flammable. So there is a mixture of real issues and ignorance. Fact is copper jacketed M193 out of a long enough barrel is more destructive against steel then any of the common magnetic 7.62x39 ammo we americans can get our hands on and apparently that goes for the wolf 5.56 ammo also. I have had trainers ignorantly tell me I could use not wolf 7.62x39, but 55 grain copper jacketed out of a 5.56 was just dandy with their steel targets. When I hear such- my reaction if oh well and walk on by.

    There is a lot of misinformation out there. If one is a trainer, dispense the most accurate information possible. We can not always get it right, but we should try to do our best.
    Here is a youtube on M193 vs wolf steel 5.56 from InRange on steel targets.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F28NK5mhLos
    InRangeTV
    279K subscribers
    Fairly recently TulAmmo switched from copper washed to zinc washed bi-metal projectiles.

    While many ranges and matches prohibit any bullets that draw a magnet, ranges that previously allowed copper washed post-ComBloc manufacture ammunition are now specifically prohibiting the use of these zinc washed bullets due to concerns about steel target damage and "splashback".

    Let's test TulAmmo zinc washed bullets against legitimate M193 at 20 yards and see if we can figure this out.
     

    FrommerStop

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    If your referring to me being a trainer and should be knowledgeable,
    A) I preceded my comments saying I wasn’t an expert on the subject
    B) I’m not currently using steel targets in my classes
    C) if/when I do use steel, i consider minimum safe distance with most rifles/ammo/targets to be 50yards. ERGC’s policy is 100yards. And if your ammo don’t pass the magnet test, then your not shooting my steel with it, as I’m not cutting apart your bullets or relying on what you tell me to decide if it’s safe to use with my targets. Sorry


    Deadly Threat Defense LLC
    Firearms Training near Pensacola, FL

    I was referring to someone else and not you.

    The other trainers were adamant. Admitting that one does not know I like and is not disseminating false information. It is the blowhards that know everything that make me just walk on by.
     
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    SAWMAN

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    I have shot plenty of 109 and 855 both.
    I would have to personally witness to believe that a 855 rd from 16 inches of bbl will not penetrate ANY body armor enough to kill the wearer.
    I have shot this stuff through some of the hardest of barriers that one would think would protect a human. Put a couple on the brakes,hubs,driveshaft,or even the rear differential of a truck and it will disable that vech.
    For a true test of a vest,there should be a man inside of it. --- SAWMAN
     

    FrommerStop

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    I have shot plenty of 109 and 855 both.
    I would have to personally witness to believe that a 855 rd from 16 inches of bbl will not penetrate ANY body armor enough to kill the wearer.
    I have shot this stuff through some of the hardest of barriers that one would think would protect a human. Put a couple on the brakes,hubs,driveshaft,or even the rear differential of a truck and it will disable that vech.
    For a true test of a vest,there should be a man inside of it. --- SAWMAN

    Volunteers anyone. :loco:

    There used to be a guy and maybe still is that would shoot himself with a .44 mag revolver to show that his vest worked since he was selling them. He would put a pile of magazines between him and vest before he did and sort of giggled as he was doing it.

    I have no direct experience to speak of with the 5.56. What part of the rear differential did you shoot? How thick was the steel casting at that point or was it the cover.
     

    SAWMAN

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    As much as I remember,the rear diff casing is cast/pot metal. The gears inside are super hard. You will drain the oil and usually chop or chunk off a piece of gear which will frag the rest.
    Put a driveshaft out of balance and it will tear itself apart. Especially the U joints.
    Good reading is the two volume set by P.O. Ackley re. a 20gr out of a 220Swift at 5000fps vs armor. --- SAWMAN
     

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