It just makes you Wonder...Why

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  • Zeroed in

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    https://www.mysuncoast.com/2019/10/...-old-woman-during-citizens-training-exercise/

    Why would any person (in their right mind), train shooting scenario's where you point your pistol at a person and worse, pull the trigger? Especially worse using citizens during "staged" crimes. I can see the point and the usefulness of doing the scenario's, But why not use rubber/fake/play pistols instead of the real deal?

    The (Punta Gorda, Fl) officer who shot and killed a 73 yoa lady during a "citizens training exercise" did just that, Real Pistol, Real Ammunition. Very Sad, and Very Preventable.
    The incident occurred in 2016, but just recently the case was resolved. The officer plead no contest to 2d degree manslaughter, received 10yr probation and no jail time.
    The victims family received 2 million for the fatal shooting.

    Remember, Unloaded Guns KILLS.
    If you do not comprehend that statement you shouldn't handle a firearm, at least around other people.
     

    wildrider666

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    I remember when that happened. No excuses for that. I don't understand why the negligence charge didn't stick. Article also states the Police Chief was fired for staff not following safety protocols. Possibly that lack of supervision moved the negligence target off former Officer's back. Still: it's basic gun safety 101 and is ALWAYS the gun handlers responsibility.
     

    SAWMAN

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    During one of the instructors courses that I had to go to when I was USN,at the end of the course you had to write lesson guides and give a lesson on a subject of your choice.
    A student asked the instructor if he could give his on the 1911 pistol. The instructor let out with a very loud "hell no". When questioned,the instructor told the story of how a student got killed some years ago.
    The student was giving his lecture on the 1911 pistol. During a part of the lecture,the student wanted to stress several things that you never do with the firearm. At some point he pointed the pistol at another student in the front row,and pulled the trigger. The weapon fired and hit the student squarely between the eyes. He died immediately.
    Magically . . . no more firearms were to be used as training aids. --- SAWMAN
     

    IronBeard

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    Repetitive realistic training conditions one to initiate/complete a series of actions/events in quick secession. Consequently, the training tactics one resorts to are usually those one was most recently trained on/exposed to. The fail-safe resides in the data processing unit located between the ears. If the unit is not sufficiently activated or its warning(s) heeded, well, there ya go.........
     

    Zeroed in

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    Repetitive realistic training conditions one to initiate/complete a series of actions/events in quick secession. Consequently, the training tactics one resorts to are usually those one was most recently trained on/exposed to. The fail-safe resides in the data processing unit located between the ears. If the unit is not sufficiently activated or its warning(s) heeded, well, there ya go.........

    ^^^ Layman Terms ^^^, Do Not Practice or Train with real guns whether loaded or unloaded while using People as targets. Otherwise, use Paper Targets.
     

    IronBeard

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    ^^^ Layman Terms ^^^, Do Not Practice or Train with real guns whether loaded or unloaded while using People as targets. Otherwise, use Paper Targets.

    Trying to kill two birds with one stone, maybe? Short on funds for training gear?? Hard to say. Yeah, there probably should have been two/three levels of safety checks, but.......

    For what I'm talking about, it doesn't matter what you use in training, it's the outcome. Repetitive training creates both mental and muscle memory that results in certain actions coming into play with little or no thought; you just do it. That is no slight on anyone's mental ability, that's how the training is designed. It's supposed to work when you are mentally and physically fatigued/overloaded. Maybe it's time to move away from that toward a more "thoughtful" approach, but thought takes time, and good luck selling that when all you have are micro-seconds. Not disagreeing with you, just seeing it as it is.

    IMO, there could be a case made for NOT conducting certain military-type training such as direct action drills within the LE community simply because DA drills assume for the most part that everything in front of you is a likely a threat/target. The majority of military-type weapons training is also designed with the primary objective being to keep you are yours alive. That might apply in Al ____, but maybe not so much in Everytown, USA. Just an opinion.
     

    wildrider666

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    FWIW: Train, repeat, train, repeat, train, repeat....... we do it thousands of times. Depending on what it is, we see improved dexterity, weapons handling and accuracy. Train, repeat, train repeat...... We also ingrain "what the expected result should be" at each step. Train, repeat, train repeat.... We can also ingrain a procedure as a "step in the process" and not a "Check" This is when we ingrain "a result" that we've seen thousands of times instead of consciously evaluating "what the result actually IS"! This is a form of complacency: just going through the motions.

    Ever wonder if you locked a door or turned off the stove, or any part of a sequence of events you've done thousands of times and you recheck it? Can't find your keys or a tool that you "always" put in the same place? Same basics where a repeated routine nets a different result. Consider the infamous Glock "post clearing", Takedow trigger pull: BANG. They either didn't follow procedures or just went through the motions (+-) assuming the result was "Clear". So many NDs blame the Glock design that handgun Mfrs are designing and advertising handgun takedowns that "don't require the trigger to be pulled". Clearing a semi-auto pistol is pretty standard: same for a Colt, FN, CZ, S&W and Glock. When done properly, what's done next is moot. If a person didn't clear a Glock correctly, they probably couldn't clear the other brands either. The difference is the Glock is unforgiving if you fail to follow procedures. Some Mfrs are in fact "dumming-down" their designs so a Caveman can do it.

    Did OPs Officer(s) just go though motions? Don't be "that" guy.
     

    IronBeard

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    FWIW: Train, repeat, train, repeat, train, repeat....... we do it thousands of times. Depending on what it is, we see improved dexterity, weapons handling and accuracy. Train, repeat, train repeat...... We also ingrain "what the expected result should be" at each step. Train, repeat, train repeat.... We can also ingrain a procedure as a "step in the process" and not a "Check" This is when we ingrain "a result" that we've seen thousands of times instead of consciously evaluating "what the result actually IS"! This is a form of complacency: just going through the motions.

    Ever wonder if you locked a door or turned off the stove, or any part of a sequence of events you've done thousands of times and you recheck it? Can't find your keys or a tool that you "always" put in the same place? Same basics where a repeated routine nets a different result. Consider the infamous Glock "post clearing", Takedow trigger pull: BANG. They either didn't follow procedures or just went through the motions (+-) assuming the result was "Clear". So many NDs blame the Glock design that handgun Mfrs are designing and advertising handgun takedowns that "don't require the trigger to be pulled". Clearing a semi-auto pistol is pretty standard: same for a Colt, FN, CZ, S&W and Glock. When done properly, what's done next is moot. If a person didn't clear a Glock correctly, they probably couldn't clear the other brands either. The difference is the Glock is unforgiving if you fail to follow procedures. Some Mfrs are in fact "dumming-down" their designs so a Caveman can do it.

    Did OPs Officer(s) just go though motions? Don't be "that" guy.
    We're on the same frequency wildrider

    Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
     

    IronBeard

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    Good to hear! If folks would teach and treat "Checks" like Stop signs; pending a Go OR No Go Result before continuing: I believe there would be fewer NDs. Anything less is just a speed bump.

    Yeah the problem with repetitive training is, unless those checks are built in as significant portion of the end result, and there are penalties/repercussions for failure, the focus will still be the end result. At that point, the driven/motivated/creative will find a quicker more efficient way to the end result.
     

    IronBeard

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    ^^^^^^^^^ Which brings us back to the Fatal ND in the OP.

    Agreed. Only time will tell if "I feared for my life." will continue to be justification enough.

    I could almost see my way to supporting such a defense if it were made available equally to all, and equally allowed by the justice system. As long as there are two standards, I cannot.
     

    fl57caveman

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    VAN BUREN — Police say a Maine man was shot to death by a homemade security device in his home.
    Van Buren police say 65-year-old Ronald Cyr dialed 911 to say he’d been shot.

    WAGM-TV reported that police arrived Thursday evening to find his Van Buren home was outfitted with a booby trap designed to fire a handgun at anyone opening the front door. Officers called the state police bomb squad after discovering other “unknown devices.”


    https://www.pressherald.com/2019/11/29/van-buren-man-shot-to-death-by-his-own-boobytrap/
     
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