FL LAW: Restriction on Firearm Sale to persons under 21YO: Where's the Truth?

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  • wildrider666

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    This issue surfaced recently when a under 21YO Member inquired about purchasing a firearm on GCGF.

    Non-Lawyer disclaimer (but I can read): I still find the referenced "Law" lacking in clarity compaired to its wide "ASSUMED" application. There is no penalty for a person under 21 YO who attemps or succeeds purchasing a firearm from a FFL or private party sale (which is never mentioned in the Law). There is no penalty for a private party "Seller" that attempts or completes a firearm Sale to someone younger than 21YO. The law only contains a Penalty for a Licensed Dealer.

    (13) A person younger than 21 years of age may not purchase a firearm. The sale or transfer of a firearm to a person younger than 21 years of age may not be made or facilitated by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer. A person who violates this subsection commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. The prohibitions of this subsection do not apply to the purchase of a rifle or shotgun by a law enforcement officer or correctional officer, as those terms are defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or (9), or a servicemember as defined in s. 250.01

    So unless LE or a prosecutor makes a stretch to some bogus charge like creating a public nuisance or reckless endangerment: there is nothing Chargable for an under 21 Buyer and a Private Seller AS THE LAW IS WRITTEN.

    I welcome Lawyer and current FL LE to comment on what they would do if they encounter a private sale to an under 21YO.
     

    Bowhntr6pt

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    This issue surfaced recently when a under 21YO Member inquired about purchasing a firearm on GCGF.

    Non-Lawyer disclaimer (but I can read): I still find the referenced "Law" lacking in clarity compaired to its wide "ASSUMED" application. There is no penalty for a person under 21 YO who attemps or succeeds purchasing a firearm from a FFL or private party sale (which is never mentioned in the Law). There is no penalty for a private party "Seller" that attempts or completes a firearm Sale to someone younger than 21YO. The law only contains a Penalty for a Licensed Dealer.

    (13) A person younger than 21 years of age may not purchase a firearm. The sale or transfer of a firearm to a person younger than 21 years of age may not be made or facilitated by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer. A person who violates this subsection commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. The prohibitions of this subsection do not apply to the purchase of a rifle or shotgun by a law enforcement officer or correctional officer, as those terms are defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or (9), or a servicemember as defined in s. 250.01

    So unless LE or a prosecutor makes a stretch to some bogus charge like creating a public nuisance or reckless endangerment: there is nothing Chargable for an under 21 Buyer and a Private Seller AS THE LAW IS WRITTEN.

    I welcome Lawyer and current FL LE to comment on what they would do if they encounter a private sale to an under 21YO.

    I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is... not sure I understand your question/concern.

    A person younger than 21 years of age may not purchase a firearm. This is a straight forward and very clear prohibited act, take it at FACE VALUE... those under 21 can't purchase a firearm from ANYONE. Says nothing about gift. If you sell one to a person under 21, you aid that person in violating this section.

    The sale or transfer of a firearm to a person younger than 21 years of age may not be made or facilitated by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer. This goes on to specify licensed dealers specifically as far as sale/transfer.

    A person who violates this subsection [13] commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    "A person"... is all inclusive, this is the penalty portion, and it applies to ALL prohibited acts.

    As written, it does not prohibit a "gift" from a non-licensed person as I read the law. If you sell a firearm to someone under 21 you become an "accessory", see below...

    FSS 777.04

    (3) A person who agrees, conspires, combines, or confederates with another person or persons to commit any offense commits the offense of criminal conspiracy, ranked for purposes of sentencing as provided in subsection (4).

    Therefore you would be committing a Misd 1st.

    Not saying I'm right with the above, but it's what is believed in the LE circles I work in.

    EDIT TO ADD- and for the record, I disagree with the law...it needs to go away.
     
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    Telum Pisces

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    The ambiguity and gray area begins with the first sentence!

    (13) A person younger than 21 years of age may not purchase a firearm.

    Period, Dot! No exception in that sentence. When there is meant to be exceptions, it's separated by semi-colons or commas or subsections etc...

    Now if the only penalty is on the 18-21 year old that purchased the firearm and not the private seller, then there again is the legal snafu!
     

    bpreston

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    Im pretty confident that I am the initiator of this discussion. I realize now that I should have done more research before posting on the WTB Forum. I had/have no intentions of breaking the law myself, or causing anyone else to, and i apologize if it seemed that way. I should have done a better job of informing myself.

    The Florida Statute I was going off off was 790.17 which states that “Furnishing weapons to minors under 18 years of age or persons of unsound mind and furnishing firearms to minors under 18 years of age prohibited.”

    It is my understanding that the above mentioned statute, 790.065.(13), is referring to dealers as opposed to individuals making private sales.

    Just my 2 cents, I’m no lawyer.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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    Big Shrek

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    (13) A person younger than 21 years of age may not purchase a firearm. The sale or transfer of a firearm to a person younger than 21 years of age may not be made or facilitated by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer. A person who violates this subsection commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    I read this as meaning BOTH. Purchaser and Seller.
    But I ain't a lawyer either.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    Gun control laws, written by politicians/lawyers, confusing for law enforcement officers AND Citizens, necessitating judicial interpretation to further refine or negate the original law.

    Use your best judgement. It's more than your elected officials will ever do...
     

    Bowhntr6pt

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    I can only speculate the "intent" of the law was to create a situation where a person under 21 could only acquire a firearm via gift from someone.

    It can be presumed that a person would only gift a firearm to someone under 21 if they knew and/or believed they would be, or are, a responsible person who posed no threat(s).

    Basically it seems to me this was a poor attempt at severely limiting the sources a person under 21 could acquire a firearm.

    Perhaps this was a poor attempt to skirt the 2nd Amendment as it does not prohibit "possession", as we all know that would obviously be unconstitutional at face value. I think a strong case can be made the law is still unconstitutional as it certainly infringes upon a person under 21 in their ability to acquire a firearm lawfully.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Relative to the op. I would want the opinion from someone that practices law dealing with criminal use and possession of firearms. Besides what is written in the law, there is also case law that can turn the meaning of the written regulation upside down. Many people know just enough to be dangerous. The above posts could be correct and then maybe not. The common practice in the LE community I would pay attention to since it is they that observe-record, arrest, and play a role in the charges that are brought to bear.

    I will not be transferring anything that qualifies as dangerous instrumentality to any minor and I really I have no pressing reason to do so.
     

    Viking1204

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    It just sickens me that I now live in a state that has so much disrespect for the constitution. So now a young man or woman turns 18 and wants to buy his or her first deer hunting rifle can't do so as a legal adult yet can join the military and die for their country. Hopefully they have parents that have gifted them guns they can hunt with but you know that's not going to be the case with everyone!
     

    FLT

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    Those laws are written to be confusing , the way they are worded will cause people to refuse to sell a firearm to a person that’s legal to sell a firearm to. It accomplishes it’s goal , most of the guys here are pretty well versed on gun laws and we still can’t come to a conclusion of the true meaning of it as written. -Bowhntr6pt is a firearms instructor with many years of law enforcement experience as well as a highly respected training instructor for his agency as well as civilians, and he qualified his interpretation of the law as being his opinion. I assure you most Leo’s aren’t as well versed as he is when it comes to firearms law. My take on this is the phrase ( you may not have to do the time, but you are going to take the ride) that in and of its self will stop most folks from selling or giving a firearm to someone under the age of 21.
     
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    wildrider666

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    Im pretty confident that I am the initiator of this discussion. I realize now that I should have done more research before posting on the WTB Forum. I had/have no intentions of breaking the law myself, or causing anyone else to, and i apologize if it seemed that way. I should have done a better job of informing myself.

    The Florida Statute I was going off off was 790.17 which states that “Furnishing weapons to minors under 18 years of age or persons of unsound mind and furnishing firearms to minors under 18 years of age prohibited.”

    It is my understanding that the above mentioned statute, 790.065.(13), is referring to dealers as opposed to individuals making private sales.

    Just my 2 cents, I’m no lawyer.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I was deliberately trying to avoid the appearance of throwing you under the bus as I believe your comments at your related Thread. This is also why I opened a seperate Thread. My OP here is generated after reading 790.065 again, and still being unsure of the reach of its infered language.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    Can you gift a pistol to an 18-year-old in Florida?

    Follow up questions "and completely unrelated":
    1) is an AR pistol lower (it was built as a pistol the first time, so it can go from pistol-to-rifle-to-pistol legally) currently in a rifle configuration, considered a "rifle" if you sold it to an 18-year-old in a free state?
    2) Would that new owner have the same ability to change it to a pistol without issues since the firearm was Originally built as a pistol?
    3) And would the new owner not be able to change it to a pistol until they're 21?
    4) Or would the new owner only be able to treat it as a rifle because they Bought it as a rifle?

    Mostly serious questions, but they are also intended to point out the continued absurdity of current firearms laws, in addition to the slew of new ones.
     

    bpreston

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    I was deliberately trying to avoid the appearance of throwing you under the bus as I believe your comments at your related Thread. This is also why I opened a seperate Thread. My OP here is generated after reading 790.065 again, and still being unsure of the reach of its infered language.

    I wouldn't say you threw me under the bus. I would say it's a discussion that needs to be had.
     

    Telum Pisces

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    Follow up questions "and completely unrelated":
    1) is an AR pistol lower (it was built as a pistol the first time, so it can go from pistol-to-rifle-to-pistol legally) currently in a rifle configuration, considered a "rifle" if you sold it to an 18-year-old in a free state?
    2) Would that new owner have the same ability to change it to a pistol without issues since the firearm was Originally built as a pistol?
    3) And would the new owner not be able to change it to a pistol until they're 21?
    4) Or would the new owner only be able to treat it as a rifle because they Bought it as a rifle?

    Mostly serious questions, but they are also intended to point out the continued absurdity of current firearms laws, in addition to the slew of new ones.

    "Possession" of pistol has always been 18 no matter what! Read into that what you will.
     

    Zeroed in

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    Hmm, good questions, But hardly obtaining the right answers. Give it to an attorney and tell him what you want it to mean, given to the right attorney and they can construe it could mean any kid can own either one or both. Look what the did to the 1st Amendment, free speech, twisted it to mean anything you do can be free speech, such as burning the American Flag. I remember a time when it was unlawful to burn the American Flag for any reason other than the proper disposal of one, Damn Commie Lawyers.
     

    MAXman

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    Relative to the op. I would want the opinion from someone that practices law dealing with criminal use and possession of firearms. Besides what is written in the law, there is also case law that can turn the meaning of the written regulation upside down. Many people know just enough to be dangerous. The above posts could be correct and then maybe not. The common practice in the LE community I would pay attention to since it is they that observe-record, arrest, and play a role in the charges that are brought to bear.

    I will not be transferring anything that qualifies as dangerous instrumentality to any minor and I really I have no pressing reason to do so.

    Define minor.
     

    wildrider666

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    I reviewed the List of Florida Standard Jury Instructions and opened several in the weapons category. The mandatory Instructions are provided by Judges to Juries to clearly identify specific elements of an offense that must be met (as interped by the Juty) in order to decide the Verdict. None exist for the alleged crime of 21YO/Dealer/buy/sell/private sale/transfer. Instructions do exist for applications with transactions with "Minors under 18YO". Persons 18+ but not yet 21YO clearly are not "Minors" by Law. Lack of specific criminal offense Jury Instructions could be the result of the Law being a relatively New. I also read the Six that were being reviewed by the Committee: not their either.

    Noteworthy is the two for Minors: one says "Dealer in the business for profit" (Sells trades, barters....) and the other says "A Person who (Sells, trades, barters, provides,....). The use of "Person" (as in Any Person that violates the provisions of this Stature) in the Minors Instructions clearly include Private Sale. That leads me to believe the same application would be use for the under 21YO Statute as well.
     
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