APOD Firearms

AR15 purchase

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Gulf Coast States

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Snake-Eyes

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Joined
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages
    3,451
    Points
    113
    Location
    Florida
    A national registry system that works as intended will not likely happen. Remember politicians often really do not care if the laws they pass work as advertised.
    An issue that I was discussing was selling the receivers that you make to private individuals without the proper licenses and paper work. Today it would only be important if an AR with such a receiver was used in a mass shooting etc. No telling what the FBI or ATF forensic labs could find out. I might make such a receiver but I would not sell one, especially not to a complete stranger. Not enough money to make the risk worth while. You could also be a victim of a sting operation since it is illegal to sell them.

    I keep seeing people talking about all of the dead LEOs that will die from seizing peoples guns. I think some might try and resist. Most people would not violently resist and would probably try and stash what they have so it would not be readily found.

    If someone is foolish enough to resist, do not count on just dealing with a typical SWAT team. Remember if needed just about any hardware the USA DoD has can be used. It is already against the bill of rights and constitution to seize firearms from private citizens. It would not be a big problem to do a lot worse to enforce such laws.
    This is how we do it overseas and remember what happened at Waco when the Koresh group refused to surrender.


    There are many items in that post that make me shake my head in disbelief.

    Let's see.
    - You CAN sell a firearm you made. You CAN'T make firearms with the intent to sell them, unless you have the appropriate licenses. There is a difference. The former is a onetime hobby thing; the latter is a business.
    - Whether someone is your twin or a total stranger, after the sale, what they do ISN'T your fault. Mother Theresa could have an aneurism and go psycho. As long as there is no reason to think the potential buyer is unqualified to purchase, the sale is valid. Even the all-Holy "Background Check" can't predict the future...
    - A national registry system is incrementally becoming reality. Right now, the lack of digitization and the data collected during the 4473 check is only a matter of policy and some laws designed to prevent a digitally searchable database, but THEY HAVE THE INFO. These "Universal Background Check" laws will cement the path even more.
    - Don't be too dismissive about the amount of people who would "resist". I think a more appropriate word is "Defend". An armed group arrives at your home to Disarm you and imprison you, and you are Innocent. Now your family is without you and any weapons. You're in jail and they are at a disadvantage to defend themselves. No. The type of organization that would sanction that kind of oppression is not an organization that deserves any respect.
    - True "Law Enforcement Officers" operate with discretion and under the guidance of the Oath they took. The US Constitution is in there. Their duty is to the Constitution first. They don't have a blanket excuse to act as oppressors just because a stupid law got passed. Once they cross that line and become Unconstitutional aggressors, they forfeit the inherent respect we should show to our uniformed first responders. Harsh reality. I'm sure they know this already.

    In the military, we knew the line of unlawful orders versus lawful ones. I expect my LEOs to excercise their own set of moral compass and intestinal fortitude.

    - The helicopter footage is a poor choice of example "how we do it overseas". That's a controversial tape. My experience is yes, we have air superiority and we use it. Yes, we have graphic video of what happens to combatants. NO, it isn't a damn video game of see/shoot/repeat. There are even LAWYERS in the damn decision tree. It's controlled to the highest level the conflict will allow based on the circumstances. Sometimes it is controlled much higher than the situation will allow, and important decisions are stalled... often to the detriment of the mission.

    - If you have a technical or an air asset turning your home into Swiss cheese, and you're innocent, how do you think they'll treat you if/when you're arrested? What would your future self wish you had done while you were still a free soul?

    No. These discussions can easily devolve into horrible worst case scenarios.

    To avoid it, the government should recognize that the tens/hundreds of millions of gun owners are NOT a problem, until it MAKES US one.

    OP, buy an AR-15 if you want one. Buy from wherever you feel has the best price for you. If you are super concerned about a paper trail, buy from a private individual. However, you will need ammo. You will need magazines. You might buy another upper. All of these transactions will put your name on a list somewhere.

    Computer hardrives are cheap, and the three-letter agencies have deep pockets.

    Concern yourself more with deciding how far you're willing to let some unauthorized organization RAPE you and your family's rights.
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,908
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    There are many items in that post that make me shake my head in disbelief.

    Let's see.
    - You CAN sell a firearm you made. You CAN'T make firearms with the intent to sell them, unless you have the appropriate licenses. There is a difference. The former is a onetime hobby thing; the latter is a business.
    - Whether someone is your twin or a total stranger, after the sale, what they do ISN'T your fault. Mother Theresa could have an aneurism and go psycho. As long as there is no reason to think the potential buyer is unqualified to purchase, the sale is valid. Even the all-Holy "Background Check" can't predict the future...
    - A national registry system is incrementally becoming reality. Right now, the lack of digitization and the data collected during the 4473 check is only a matter of policy and some laws designed to prevent a digitally searchable database, but THEY HAVE THE INFO. These "Universal Background Check" laws will cement the path even more.
    - Don't be too dismissive about the amount of people who would "resist". I think a more appropriate word is "Defend". An armed group arrives at your home to Disarm you and imprison you, and you are Innocent. Now your family is without you and any weapons. You're in jail and they are at a disadvantage to defend themselves. No. The type of organization that would sanction that kind of oppression is not an organization that deserves any respect.
    - True "Law Enforcement Officers" operate with discretion and under the guidance of the Oath they took. The US Constitution is in there. Their duty is to the Constitution first. They don't have a blanket excuse to act as oppressors just because a stupid law got passed. Once they cross that line and become Unconstitutional aggressors, they forfeit the inherent respect we should show to our uniformed first responders. Harsh reality. I'm sure they know this already.

    In the military, we knew the line of unlawful orders versus lawful ones. I expect my LEOs to excercise their own set of moral compass and intestinal fortitude.

    - The helicopter footage is a poor choice of example "how we do it overseas". That's a controversial tape. My experience is yes, we have air superiority and we use it. Yes, we have graphic video of what happens to combatants. NO, it isn't a damn video game of see/shoot/repeat. There are even LAWYERS in the damn decision tree. It's controlled to the highest level the conflict will allow based on the circumstances. Sometimes it is controlled much higher than the situation will allow, and important decisions are stalled... often to the detriment of the mission.

    - If you have a technical or an air asset turning your home into Swiss cheese, and you're innocent, how do you think they'll treat you if/when you're arrested? What would your future self wish you had done while you were still a free soul?

    No. These discussions can easily devolve into horrible worst case scenarios.

    To avoid it, the government should recognize that the tens/hundreds of millions of gun owners are NOT a problem, until it MAKES US one.

    OP, buy an AR-15 if you want one. Buy from wherever you feel has the best price for you. If you are super concerned about a paper trail, buy from a private individual. However, you will need ammo. You will need magazines. You might buy another upper. All of these transactions will put your name on a list somewhere.

    Computer hardrives are cheap, and the three-letter agencies have deep pockets.

    Concern yourself more with deciding how far you're willing to let some unauthorized organization RAPE you and your family's rights.

    I could answer most of what you say and it would a long dawn out discussion and would really serve no purpose.
    I will simply state:
    We are at a critical junction of our government that is increasingly being controlled by the powerful and the general foolishness of a slim majority going along with it. I expect there to be future federal gun control that includes registration. Hopefully I am in Error.
    If a future specialized federal Gun Enforcement force raids your home, there is the technical ability to visualize anyone with a weapons and act against them. It could even be a drone operated by some geek a 1,000 miles away with a joy stick controlling a minigun or such. The point of the film was just to show the technology. Again I hope I am very wrong about this ever happening here.
    A whole lot people think that with an AR15 that they are a real life Rambo. Rambo was Hollywood fantasy.
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,908
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    The above cut-down quote is very true. Being in the profession, I often run the mental exercise of where do I personally draw the line? At what point do I decide to openly refuse to enforce an unconstitutional law? What potential new laws am I willing to comply with myself before becoming an outlaw. Not something I’d discuss in depth online, but I feel like 90% of the others in the profession are with me.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I am not so worried about local law enforcement. I do not think most LEOs would enforce unconstitutional laws on the scale needed for enforcement of federal level gun registration and banning. The same is true of many combat military also.
    But there are people that will do such things.
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    Back to OP''s Q. FWIW: Since the inception of Fed mandated background checks, Feds have been specifically restricted BY LAW from maintaining these records and they must be destroyed in a few days. Feds have been caught by the IG for holding records well beyond the "mandatory" destruction dates. Dealer Records: paper or digital; must be preserved and protected (encouraged?). Upon business closure, Licence expiring/revocation: all records must be sent to the ATF National Tracing Center, Out of Business Records Center. The Center can't make a computerized data base either so they convert all submitted records into old fashion microfiche that is easier to search, doesn't take up as much space or degrade as fast as paper records. All that effort only provides limited "tracing" or actual ownership tracking with recent sales getting better results than older sales which may have undergone no record/B.O.S. private resales since that time. After the initial sale there is no means to track it other than detective work contacting the known last owner. If there's no record of where or who the gun went to: the Trace is dead.

    Even if the gun is sold by the second or third owner to a gun/pawn shop: there is no connection telling ATF to look in that shops records: UNLESS the Gov is illegally keeping Form 4473 data; in that case it would be tainted evidence. Its like a Chicago murder weapon that was originally sold in Mississippi, resold privately twice (no record) then pawned and resold in Texas: Out of the blue ATF contacts the Texas Pawn Shop!

    Reaistically, New is a direct link, used has better "potential" of less links but there's no sure thing. It relies on the information known to the last owner it is traced to. Joe buys it New, sells it to friend "Bill" he knows well, Bill sells it via a Newspaper ad w/o BOS but has buyers phone number, phone guy using name Mallcop27 sells it w/o BOS to gunsbeus.com Forum Member Chicago7 but Mallcop 27s "Backup Buddy" got a pic of the Buyer, his Caddy and Plate. So even if your totally off the Gird, cash only it doesn't mean the seller isn't going to have a lead on the buyer or deliberatly got info to cover his own butt on a "non BOS Sale".

    I've got reciepts from guns I sold in CA in the early 70s but I don't do them anymore, I peek at IDs for age/State and offer a peek at mine: Good to Go!
     

    SAWMAN

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Joined
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages
    13,937
    Points
    113
    Location
    Cantonment,Fla.
    Someone please put up (post here) the oath of office that a LEO raised his right hand and swore to uphold. --- SAWMAN
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    Seems some LE have no Constitutional problems confiscating firearms. Please Note the term Criminal would apply to firearm owners that don't comply with Laws too!

    https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/...der-guns-months-after-new-gun-law-took-effect

    Using "Registration" FOID Card data as tool to ID and Locate.
    https://www.guns.com/news/2013/07/2...ion-unit-for-criminals-and-mentally-ill-video

    What resources are sent to a 71YOs house in TEXAS, yes they can be dangerous too.
    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...ke-It-Confiscating-guns-in-Texas-13541748.php

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...-dart-gun-law-legislation-20190222-story.html

    I really don't want a individual answer on this: A Officer may have a moral, ethical or Constutional concerns regarding firearm confiscations. It a major personal and professional dilemma that may well threated his/her current employment, retirement, family finances, jeopardize their Home, impact future employment and career path to name just a few areas. Will they risk it all for (C Denotes Current and P is Proposed in U.S or various States while the rest have been proposed):
    A. A bump stock, the "New" machinegun? C
    B. A Red Flag Confiscation Order? C
    C. Gun Sale to person 18YO but not yet 21YO? C
    D. A gun sale not in accordance with Universal Background Checks? C
    E. Possession of magazines that holds more than 7 or 10 cartridges? C
    F. Possession of a Unregistered AW? C
    G. Possession of a Banned AW? C
    H. Possession of a Banned unserialized/unregistered Ghost gun? C
    I. Possession of a Unregistered firearm? C
    J. Possession of a Banned Semiautomatic firearm (non AW)? P
    K. Possession of more than 50 cartridges? P
    L. Possession of ammunition (includes fired/empty cases/shells) in restricted City, Town, Jurisdiction? C
    M. Possession of hollowpoint ammunition other than authorized locations? C
    N. Failure to return/account for all fired cases? P
    O. Possession of a firearm other than at its Registered location. C
    P. Concealed pocket knife with blade length of 4 inches or longer without Permit. C

    Yes, its a slippery slope, especially since these are usually implemented gradually, small hurdels instead of in mass where there would be larger consolidated resistance on several points at once.
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,908
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    Seems some LE have no Constitutional problems confiscating firearms. Please Note the term Criminal would apply to firearm owners that don't comply with Laws too!

    https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/...der-guns-months-after-new-gun-law-took-effect

    Using "Registration" FOID Card data as tool to ID and Locate.
    https://www.guns.com/news/2013/07/2...ion-unit-for-criminals-and-mentally-ill-video

    What resources are sent to a 71YOs house in TEXAS, yes they can be dangerous too.
    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...ke-It-Confiscating-guns-in-Texas-13541748.php

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...-dart-gun-law-legislation-20190222-story.html

    I really don't want a individual answer on this: A Officer may have a moral, ethical or Constutional concerns regarding firearm confiscations. It a major personal and professional dilemma that may well threated his/her current employment, retirement, family finances, jeopardize their Home, impact future employment and career path to name just a few areas. Will they risk it all for (C Denotes Current and P is Proposed in U.S or various States while the rest have been proposed):
    A. A bump stock, the "New" machinegun? C
    B. A Red Flag Confiscation Order? C
    C. Gun Sale to person 18YO but not yet 21YO? C
    D. A gun sale not in accordance with Universal Background Checks? C
    E. Possession of magazines that holds more than 7 or 10 cartridges? C
    F. Possession of a Unregistered AW? C
    G. Possession of a Banned AW? C
    H. Possession of a Banned unserialized/unregistered Ghost gun? C
    I. Possession of a Unregistered firearm? C
    J. Possession of a Banned Semiautomatic firearm (non AW)? P
    K. Possession of more than 50 cartridges? P
    L. Possession of ammunition (includes fired/empty cases/shells) in restricted City, Town, Jurisdiction? C
    M. Possession of hollowpoint ammunition other than authorized locations? C
    N. Failure to return/account for all fired cases? P
    O. Possession of a firearm other than at its Registered location. C
    P. Concealed pocket knife with blade length of 4 inches or longer without Permit. C

    Yes, its a slippery slope, especially since these are usually implemented gradually, small hurdels instead of in mass where there would be larger consolidated resistance on several points at once.

    From one of the links and is likely how nationwide gun seizures would be conducted.
    In response to the recent mass shooting in Aurora, Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart on Friday called for a new law to require each county to create police units to confiscate guns from people who have had their gun licenses revoked.

    Cook County is one of the few departments that has a dedicated unit to go to the homes of people who have had their firearm owner’s identification cards revoked. The county has confiscated about 1,000 guns over the past five years, Dart said.
    Just like for drugs and gangs, in the future there will be more units set up to seize guns from people.
    Likely such units would be equipped with level 4 vests, armored cars, and maybe a lot more. Do not laugh, already in one case of barricaded terrorist that kill 4 tx policemen a robot with explosives was used. I am not passing judgement on it, but just to show the precedent is there. Some years ago a tax resister had flammable fluid poured down the chimney of his woodburning stove to burn him out.
    No one in his right mind will advanced into a home where someone has a good chance of killing him. how many of you would do such? You surround and most use tear gas or some other means rather than exposing yourself to smallarms fire.

    robot to kill Dallas shooting suspect ...theguardian.com
    3221.jpg

    url

    dallas robot explosive.jpg
     

    Attachments

    • dallas robot explosive.jpg
      dallas robot explosive.jpg
      10.4 KB · Views: 232
    Last edited:

    SAWMAN

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Joined
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages
    13,937
    Points
    113
    Location
    Cantonment,Fla.
    So . . . the oath of office has nothing in it about THE LAWS of the state or any other government entity ??
    So . . . where is a LEO's duty to enforce the actual laws ?? --- SAWMAN
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    1985: Philly: After 500 cops showed up to force an eviction and execute arrest warrants, the City Manager gave a Speech! Then Power/water cut, followed by PD firing tear gas. "MOVE Org" (Animal Rights, Equality of all living things) folks then resisted and a gunfight erupted. Police fired 10K rounds then Philly PD dropped 2 bombs from a State Police helo on the "Move" Row House. Killed 5 children, 6 adults, burned down 65 houses. Civil Suit by member/survivors against City & PD got $1.5M from a Federal Grand Jury FOR: Excessive Force and Violations of Constitutional Protections against Unreasonable Search and Seizure.

    Just an old snapshot of force brought to bear.
     

    fl57caveman

    eclectic atavist
    GCGF Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Joined
    Jan 23, 2015
    Messages
    12,331
    Points
    113
    Location
    n.w. florida
    the city of brotherly love.....

    or as the truckers call it, filthydelphia
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,908
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    1985: Philly: After 500 cops showed up to force an eviction and execute arrest warrants, the City Manager gave a Speech! Then Power/water cut, followed by PD firing tear gas. "MOVE Org" (Animal Rights, Equality of all living things) folks then resisted and a gunfight erupted. Police fired 10K rounds then Philly PD dropped 2 bombs from a State Police helo on the "Move" Row House. Killed 5 children, 6 adults, burned down 65 houses. Civil Suit by member/survivors against City & PD got $1.5M from a Federal Grand Jury FOR: Excessive Force and Violations of Constitutional Protections against Unreasonable Search and Seizure.

    Just an old snapshot of force brought to bear.

    sieges coupled with assaults of fortified houses often result in fire one way or the other with significant destruction and loss of life.
    waco.jpg
    Waco
     

    Attachments

    • waco.jpg
      waco.jpg
      7.7 KB · Views: 225
    Top Bottom