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Florida "Red Flag" question

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  • IronBeard

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    How does PTSD work with Florida's red flag gun confiscation? I would hope that those that put their lives on the line for our country don't become affected by this unconstitutional law.

    Last I read over it, there was a "for any other reason" provision in there, so you can take it from there. Seems like that's the catch-all that circumvents due process, but is justified as erring on the side of caution, IMO. I'm sure that'll only be used in a constitutional manner, and only in times of the most dire of circumstances. (Yes, sarcasm.)
     

    FrommerStop

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    The possibility for abuse in red flag laws is there. But I am not quite readily to start posting the scenario of the full fledged SWAT raid on private citizens without cause yet. But it could be in the future.
    What is also going nation wide at the moment are anti-terrorist raids on people said to be NAZI like. the most prominent one
    Accused neo-Nazi charged in Las Vegas with possessing bomb-making material
    Steve Gorman

    3 Min Read

    (Reuters) - An accused neo-Nazi sympathizer employed as a Las Vegas security guard was charged on Friday with possession of unregistered bomb-making materials that he clandestinely discussed using to attack a synagogue, federal prosecutors said.
    I certainly do not agree with the nutcase that they arrested, but it is the tip of the slippery slope.
    He was arrested for unregistered bomb-making materials and those could be almost anything unless the law is highly specific.
    He was arrested for discussing an attack which basically is a conspiracy charge. These types of charges can also be twisted about. They were using under cover agents to elicit these conversations.
    There are a lot of people that talk about what they might do. Be very careful of doing such discussions with anyone, even if it is over beers and you guys are just BSing.
     

    HayesGreener

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    The fact is that judges have been issuing orders and law enforcement has been seizing guns from crazy people and people subject to injunctions for protection for many years. The Florida statute at least spells out the process and pretty well guarantees due process. It's not perfect but it will get guns out of the hands of some loonies.
    Read the statute.

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2019/0790.401
     

    kendive

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    Was just thinking this "Red Flag" thing might be a new business op for someone... People are going to need red flag insurance now... Just in case someone red flags you out of spite you will need to lawyer up and all...

    Kinda like them selling insurance encase you have to kill someone for self defense. You will need to lawyer up then too.

    Just my mind wandering :) I usually stay away from these type threads here they tend to make me never want to visit this site ever, but here I am. LOL







    .
     

    lil'skeet

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    The fact is that judges have been issuing orders and law enforcement has been seizing guns from crazy people and people subject to injunctions for protection for many years. The Florida statute at least spells out the process and pretty well guarantees due process. It's not perfect but it will get guns out of the hands of some loonies.
    Read the statute.

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2019/0790.401
    One problem.... You are guilty until you prove yourself innocent on your dime and your lost time! Oh , and that is now on your record!
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    The fact is that judges have been issuing orders and law enforcement has been seizing guns from crazy people and people subject to injunctions for protection for many years. The Florida statute at least spells out the process and pretty well guarantees due process. It's not perfect but it will get guns out of the hands of some loonies.
    Read the statute.

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2019/0790.401

    Yeah, read the statute. It's for GUNS and AMMO. It has nothing to do with protecting people, even though it has the repetitive wording about "significant harm"...
    If the idea was to PROTECT from HARM, then it would focus on the RESPONDENT (the person getting red flagged) and not just One tool for the respondent to Harm self or others.

    And "due process" means innocent until PROVEN GUILTY, not the other way around. These "laws" are reactionary and dangerous. A more honest representation of their credibility would be if they actually used a crystal ball, tea leaves, and chicken bones.
     

    lil'skeet

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    When your God given right to own firearms is taken..... You will never get that right back. Look at CA, NJ, NY, MASS, just to name a couple. Then once gone crime becomes nonexistent, just like those places. Funny how you never see the daily shootings in those type of states.
    TRUMP, YOU FUCKED UP!!! NOW WE HAVE NO WALL!
    MORE GUN CONTROL! BAN ALCOHOL IT KILLS MORE PEOPLE THAN GUNS! SAME WITH CIGARETTES!
    Anyone that thinks "Red flag" is a law that will save people is a damn fool. That law puts the entire country at risk.
     

    lil'skeet

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    This is what your CCW will look like in a couple years.
    9bda55184d91fb4ebf3de06db3c6045cb1ddf530.jpg
     

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    stage20

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    The fact is that judges have been issuing orders and law enforcement has been seizing guns from crazy people and people subject to injunctions for protection for many years. The Florida statute at least spells out the process and pretty well guarantees due process. It's not perfect but it will get guns out of the hands of some loonies.
    Read the statute.

    https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2019/0790.401

    It's not about taking them from the loonies......there are only a few. They want to take them all. This is just one step closer.
     

    lil'skeet

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    It's not about taking them from the loonies......there are only a few. They want to take them all. This is just one step closer.

    No, this is it. That's law now. No compensation. No innocent until proven guilty. Welcome to fuckin communism. Fuck you liberals and fuck you Donald Trump! You fuckin liar! Worse than Obama. At least I knew I was fucked when Obama was elected!
     

    FrommerStop

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    No, this is it. That's law now. No compensation. No innocent until proven guilty. Welcome to fuckin communism. Fuck you liberals and fuck you Donald Trump! You fuckin liar! Worse than Obama. At least I knew I was fucked when Obama was elected!
    Sounds like you are going throw out the baby with the bath water here. Relative to gun ownership you know the democrap political spectrum that runs from Biden to Sanders will push ever gun control measure that is possible.
    Trump is certainly not trustworthy, but the best choice is obvious here.
     

    lil'skeet

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    I realize he is out best option. It's just sad to see what our forefathers fought and died for get tossed out the window like American history does in public schools.
    Don't get me wrong I would NEVER vote socialism/ communism. I just can't believe how easily people turn and shit what they were elected for. WITH NO ACCOUNTABILITY!
     

    IronBeard

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    When I see it mandated that "extensive background checks" and red flag laws will be applied retroactively and equally to law enforcement, I might entertain listening to the common defense that this is not about disarmament and oppression, and is all about safety.
     

    HayesGreener

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    I don't like any law that erodes the rights of law abiding citizens. But as a practical matter I have on multiple occasions been the cop outside trying to deal with a stark raving lunatic who has armed himself. Most of those incidents ended with the looney being taken into custody and taken in for a mental evaluation. So after three days he gets released if the shrinks don't think there is enough to get him committed. What do you do, leave his guns there so he can come back and do it again? Plus right now there is no mechanism for getting that mental incident into NICS so he can just go down and buy another gun. There must be some legal mechanism for us to separate that fool from his weapons. All of us would agree on that. Judges have been issuing such orders for years. I have also studied hundreds of mass shootings in my business. In almost every case mental disturbance of some sort had come to official notice. Wouldn't we have wanted to separate the Orlando shooter or the Boward County shooter from their guns? At least Florida's law spells out the due process. The mental health issue is the largest part of the equation but you can't ignore the gun piece.
     

    FrommerStop

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    I don't like any law that erodes the rights of law abiding citizens. But as a practical matter I have on multiple occasions been the cop outside trying to deal with a stark raving lunatic who has armed himself. Most of those incidents ended with the looney being taken into custody and taken in for a mental evaluation. So after three days he gets released if the shrinks don't think there is enough to get him committed. What do you do, leave his guns there so he can come back and do it again? Plus right now there is no mechanism for getting that mental incident into NICS so he can just go down and buy another gun. There must be some legal mechanism for us to separate that fool from his weapons. All of us would agree on that. Judges have been issuing such orders for years. I have also studied hundreds of mass shootings in my business. In almost every case mental disturbance of some sort had come to official notice. Wouldn't we have wanted to separate the Orlando shooter or the Boward County shooter from their guns? At least Florida's law spells out the due process. The mental health issue is the largest part of the equation but you can't ignore the gun piece.
    I can certainly see this from the point of law enforcement. I recall one story out your way of someone a few years ago discharging a long gun in the direction of a subdivision and the deputies were obliged to kill this fellow. As i heard the story one of deputies refused to shoot and ended up leaving the department over that fact.
    The slope is this. Someone calls in a malicious complaint, LEOs show up and ask the CCW resident to disarm and he does as instructed once he is satisfied that the people outside his door are LEOs. Does he get flagged for this. Maybe he is even hauled down to the station for questioning and gets red flagged. I hope not.
    The crazies need to be disarmed, but what entity or person gets to make that call.
     

    FLT

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    While we are making new laws, ————— oh wait we can’t or won’t enforce the ones we already have on the books. Most of the gun crimes are committed are by people that are already prohibited from owning or possessing firearms. It’s sure seems that our politicians only want to disarm law abiding citizens. Why is that?
     

    wildrider666

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    I really dispise the LE CUTOUT double standard. It's a: I got mine, screw you mentality. Lobbying for those Coutouts is blantant, LE professional organizations come out against Legislation when a restriction would apply to them. After the Cutout is included, they show up in Mass applauding the restrictions applied on Law Abiding Citizens.

    This foolishness implies that EVERY single LE Member is more worthy of special exemption than EVERY single Citizen and that is improbable.

    "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

    No general disrespect to ĹE, just the political talking heads in suits or uniform.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    I don't like any law that erodes the rights of law abiding citizens. But as a practical matter I have on multiple occasions been the cop outside trying to deal with a stark raving lunatic who has armed himself. Most of those incidents ended with the looney being taken into custody and taken in for a mental evaluation. So after three days he gets released if the shrinks don't think there is enough to get him committed. What do you do, leave his guns there so he can come back and do it again? Plus right now there is no mechanism for getting that mental incident into NICS so he can just go down and buy another gun. There must be some legal mechanism for us to separate that fool from his weapons. All of us would agree on that. Judges have been issuing such orders for years. I have also studied hundreds of mass shootings in my business. In almost every case mental disturbance of some sort had come to official notice. Wouldn't we have wanted to separate the Orlando shooter or the Boward County shooter from their guns? At least Florida's law spells out the due process. The mental health issue is the largest part of the equation but you can't ignore the gun piece.

    Wow.

    I edited your post with some bold to highlight some of it. That does NOT mean at All that I agree with any of it.

    You say don't erode rights BUT... nope. You lost me right there. They are RIGHTS. They aren't "convenient-until-criminals-make-them-INconvenient".

    You mention that most of those "looneys" ended up in custody and evaluated by professionals. So, let me get this straight: they were still breathing when they left, and professionals got to examine them. Sounds like a couple of wins.

    You mention that there isn't a way to update NICS with the incident. That's a double-edge sword. If the system was realtime updated, then sure, put a one-week hold (or whatever the delay verbiage is) while this warrant and resulting 3-day evaluation can pan out. However, permanently labeling someone because a false warrant was issued, or because it was a misunderstanding, or a political hunt, etc? No.

    Fix the NICS system: yes. Infringe on Rights: NO. Err on the side of caution, not the side of convenience.

    Asking "wouldn't we have wanted" is a manipulative tactic. Of course, good people "want" to prevent all crime, but ADULTS Know that is impossible while preserving Liberty. The freedom to choose and act will always have the unwanted side-effect of degenerates and evil-doers.

    Finally, yes, you most certainly CAN (and Should) ignore the gun piece. Why is the GUN the focus? Because it's scary. Because it's effective? Because it costs more time to deal with? If that's your belief, then label these laws for what they are: GUN Control. They aren't mental health support. They aren't to prevent harm. They arent to fix the NICS. They are GUN Control. Own that label, then. Defend it. See how far you get. Then, once those debates are over, you might actually have a real solution for the actual problems, not a convenient "solution" that leads to the downfall of a Nation.
     

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