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Invest 92L will likely become a tropical system

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  • FrommerStop

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    So if the power goes out, the city floods. I will not be moving to that city anytime soon. Maintaining a home his hard enough without having to fight gravity and Mother Nature.

    The power is normally not an issue except like for hurricane Katrina. The levee was breached by a barge or two and the pumps themselves went under water and I assume the power backup system also went down. Normally the pumps can handle it and I suspect there must have been improvements. back in the 70's it was claimed that the pumps could move the volume of Ohio River's flow.
    But yes that City should have been moved to higher ground and fast commuter trains put into to cross the lake for people needing to work there. never going to happen.
     

    MauserLarry

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    Why are the taxpayers on the hook to rebuild these people who return to this area after one of these disasters? Stupid decisions should have painful consequences.

    Well, the same argument could be made for the rebuilding here in our coastal areas or anywhere else something bad happens. These decisions are always political in nature and I don't look for that to change any time soon.
     

    MauserLarry

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    "But yes that City should have been moved to higher ground and fast commuter trains put into to cross the lake for people needing to work there."

    Sounds like a good idea, just have the port located there and have everything and everybody else move to higher ground. But, unfortunately, that's been out of the question for at least a 100 years. The original city was located on a high ridge and was not as prone to flooding. 50% of New Orleans is now below sea level. As swamp land was drained and the city expanded it actually caused the drained land to settle causing more flooding. A containment system was built to control the flooding which now meant large areas would have to be pumped out during rainy weather. It is a vicious cycle and doesn't really have a 100% good solution to fix. New Orleans was founded in 1718 so this stuff has been going on for a long time. I work for the Corps of Engineers and a big portion of my career has been spent working over there. There is no complete agreement among us as to what needs to be done. Tearing out the levees and structures below New Orleans and letting the water spread out has gained a lot of traction here as of late. There are also people who want a system like they have in Holland to control the flooding although I haven't seen any details on that. I do know this, people that live down there wouldn't move for anything. Hell, some of them live in the swamps on boats. I'll continue to do what I've been doing, go work over there if they need me too and spend the rest of my time on higher ground.
     

    Viking1204

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    Any levees South of New Orleans are most likely the biggest reason New Orleans struggles with controlling the mighty Mississippi! It should be allowed to spread out and release South of New Orleans, that would release a ton of pressure on the river upstream. They keep defying Mother Nature and we all know who will win that battle in the end! Lately storms have been focused on New Orleans but one of these days a Hurricane will sink Miami, that town is not protected as well as New Orleans is!
     

    FrommerStop

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    "But yes that City should have been moved to higher ground and fast commuter trains put into to cross the lake for people needing to work there."

    Sounds like a good idea, just have the port located there and have everything and everybody else move to higher ground. But, unfortunately, that's been out of the question for at least a 100 years. The original city was located on a high ridge and was not as prone to flooding. 50% of New Orleans is now below sea level. As swamp land was drained and the city expanded it actually caused the drained land to settle causing more flooding. A containment system was built to control the flooding which now meant large areas would have to be pumped out during rainy weather. It is a vicious cycle and doesn't really have a 100% good solution to fix. New Orleans was founded in 1718 so this stuff has been going on for a long time. I work for the Corps of Engineers and a big portion of my career has been spent working over there. There is no complete agreement among us as to what needs to be done. Tearing out the levees and structures below New Orleans and letting the water spread out has gained a lot of traction here as of late. There are also people who want a system like they have in Holland to control the flooding although I haven't seen any details on that. I do know this, people that live down there wouldn't move for anything. Hell, some of them live in the swamps on boats. I'll continue to do what I've been doing, go work over there if they need me too and spend the rest of my time on higher ground.
    I was under the impression that the city was originally built on sediments that were more of a mineral nature near the bank of the Mississippi. It was a little higher and could have easily been formed during periods of higher sea level. The areas next to the river were higher than those regions further away where the sediments with a lot of organics being finer settled out and deposited. As long as these were anoxic they decayed slowly, drain it and allow oxygen in and it decomposed dropping land easily by a couple feet or more.
    Now as mentioned the AEC (Army Corps of Engineers) has extended hundreds of miles of levees up the MS and its tributaries. The AEC does not want those structures gone. They are in the business of maintaining and building such things.
    Remove those and what would the AEC do.
    If America were country run on advanced intelligent/logical planning in some places like around towns we would keep the levees and in other areas we would remove them and allow the river to flood those farms enriching the soil the same way the Nile did during ancient times. A significant portion of american top soil is being carried and dumped at the River's mouth into gulf of Mexico. The coastal regions for significant portions of world now have ecological dead zones in part from what rivers world wide are transporting to the oceans and seas.

    Below is for the coastal area of the Mississippi River
    coastal dead zone.jpg
     

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    fl57caveman

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    Need to build an ark in the bayou.


    the fools will not board it...


    till the water is at the attic, then they will scream for help, and pound on the doors, which, just like the first ark, will be closed and sealed with pitch

    NO is one of the most corrupt cities in the south, the other end of that interstate ends in Chicago, another corrupt city...
     

    SAWMAN

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    Them people of NOLA can do what they want to with their city.
    I just wish that my tax money would quit going for rebuilding it time after time. --- SAWMAN
     

    MauserLarry

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    I was under the impression that the city was originally built on sediments that were more of a mineral nature near the bank of the Mississippi. It was a little higher and could have easily been formed during periods of higher sea level. The areas next to the river were higher than those regions further away where the sediments with a lot of organics being finer settled out and deposited. As long as these were anoxic they decayed slowly, drain it and allow oxygen in and it decomposed dropping land easily by a couple feet or more.

    You are exactly right. That's why if you look at old maps of NO the people built along this ridge. That's the problem in a nutshell, more people than ridge nowadays.


    Now as mentioned the AEC (Army Corps of Engineers) has extended hundreds of miles of levees up the MS and its tributaries. The AEC does not want those structures gone. They are in the business of maintaining and building such things.
    Remove those and what would the AEC do.

    The Mississippi River and tributary levee system is one of the greatest engineering feats ever. It has saved trillions of dollars and untold lives that would have been lost in catastrophic flooding. Food would be higher as the flooding would prevent the timely planting of crops in a key growing area of the US. Lots of acres won't be planted this year due to the weather just from rain. Imagine what the Mississippi River would do. As far as our mission it was mandated by congress in 1937 for the corps to assume the responsibility for all flood control projects in the US. Up till then it was all locally controlled and was a hit or miss proposition. We do military construction, harbor maintenance and dredging and work for other govt agencies so we have plenty to do without the headache of the levee systems.
    .
    If America were country run on advanced intelligent/logical planning in some places like around towns we would keep the levees and in other areas we would remove them and allow the river to flood those farms enriching the soil the same way the Nile did during ancient times. A significant portion of american top soil is being carried and dumped at the River's mouth into gulf of Mexico. The coastal regions for significant portions of world now have ecological dead zones in part from what rivers world wide are transporting to the oceans and seas.

    America is run on intelligent planning. Sure, mistakes are made, but we have a higher standard of living than just about any body else. Seems like a lot of people want to sneak in here, enough so that we have a major border problem. You want to build levees around towns and tear out the rest of the levees? What about food and supplies getting into the people, electric power. The logistics of this are terrifying plus having to build a pile of protection levees would be very expensive. The Egyptians did not have to worry about feeding 350 million people 3 meals a day plus export food to the rest of the world so they could afford some flooding. The technology to build big flood control projects did not exist back then either. True, a lot of soil is carried down the rivers every day and from the looks of the Rocky Mountains it has been going on longer than we've been here. The dead zones also predate our, at times, rather feeble efforts to control nature. No, the best answer is a well designed and maintained system of levees and structures to protect what really needs protecting and if necessary, let the rest flood.

    Below is for the coastal area of the Mississippi River
    View attachment 74921

    I'm having to add a sentence here as the way I broke Frommer's post up doesn't seem to be to the computer's liking.
     

    FrommerStop

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    I'm having to add a sentence here as the way I broke Frommer's post up doesn't seem to be to the computer's liking.
    There is a whole lot more to be said, but I do not feel at the moment the drive needed to do a lot of research, but I will throw something out there.
    The big misconception is that with the levee system one can permanently contain that river using that as the only solution.
    Intensive farming of the middle west started about 1800s with felling of the forests and plowing of prairies, This process was more or less completed by about 1900. In 1927 there was the great flood and then there has been a constant need to make the levees higher and stronger ever since.
    The problem is the flooding problem gets worse and worse and not just because we are getting more precipitation.
    The basic problem starts with modifications of the entire watershed. Every farmer for example that has a slough or wet spot on his land will over the last two hundred years have tried to drain it. The small creeks and other drainages are dug out to become ditches to run straight. Now days people demand larger lots to build on, more hard surfaces, and multiple other acts that remove structures that retain water. The rate of runoff is magnified. Essentially water flows after rain or snow melt much faster to enter our major waterways. The waterways are dredged, made straight, and due to the removal of wetlands actually reduce the volumes available to retain flood waters and the rivers run higher since water cannot be compressed and has to go somewhere. The basic premise of the AEC is based on 19th century thinking and it has sort of worked, but the future is problematic.
    Studies have shown that the levees for example cause the death and destruction of the marsh lands below New Orleans that restrict storm surges. Once the natural barriers are removed, the AEC has had to build surge/flood gates where the waters of the mississippi enter the gulf. Shipping channels have played a role in causing that disaster.
    Our agriculture is productive for many reasons, we have some of the best land in the world, it is mechanized, lots of fertilizers and pesticides, improved plants, and irrigation. The farmers and the nation needs to learn how live with river and manage it in a wise way as needed. Solid walls of levees and poor watershed management is not working well these days.
    The basic error is relying on concrete barriers to solve our problems and in the opinion of many scientists this is not the best way to manage our water ways.
     
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    Famine

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    If the Old River Lock ever fails it wont be an issue as the Mississippi will have a new route to the Gulf vis the Atchafalaya River basin.
     

    FrommerStop

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    If the Old River Lock ever fails it wont be an issue as the Mississippi will have a new route to the Gulf vis the Atchafalaya River basin.

    That is part of what I elected not to discuss. The lower river historically jumps channels and some say that jump at the lock is over due and will happen some day.
     

    MauserLarry

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    There is a whole lot more to be said, but I do not feel at the moment the drive needed to do a lot of research, but I will throw something out there.
    The big misconception is that with the levee system one can permanently contain that river using that as the only solution.
    Intensive farming of the middle west started about 1800s with felling of the forests and plowing of prairies, This process was more or less completed by about 1900. In 1927 there was the great flood and then there has been a constant need to make the levees higher and stronger ever since.
    The problem is the flooding problem gets worse and worse and not just because we are getting more precipitation.
    The basic problem starts with modifications of the entire watershed. Every farmer for example that has a slough or wet spot on his land will over the last two hundred years have tried to drain it. The small creeks and other drainages are dug out to become ditches to run straight. Now days people demand larger lots to build on, more hard surfaces, and multiple other acts that remove structures that retain water. The rate of runoff is magnified. Essentially water flows after rain or snow melt much faster to enter our major waterways. The waterways are dredged, made straight, and due to the removal of wetlands actually reduce the volumes available to retain flood waters and the rivers run higher since water cannot be compressed and has to go somewhere. The basic premise of the AEC is based on 19th century thinking and it has sort of worked, but the future is problematic.
    Studies have shown that the levees for example cause the death and destruction of the marsh lands below New Orleans that restrict storm surges. Once the natural barriers are removed, the AEC has had to build surge/flood gates where the waters of the mississippi enter the gulf. Shipping channels have played a role in causing that disaster.
    Our agriculture is productive for many reasons, we have some of the best land in the world, it is mechanized, lots of fertilizers and pesticides, improved plants, and irrigation. The farmers and the nation needs to learn how live with river and manage it in a wise way as needed. Solid walls of levees and poor watershed management is not working well these days.
    The basic error is relying on concrete barriers to solve our problems and in the opinion of many scientists this is not the best way to manage our water ways.

    Good points all but the main point in the equation isn't mentioned..............money. Everything we do, any work, or any studies have to be funded. Although I'm sure there is some activity at some level the money is not being put into the alternative methods, if such methods even exist on a practical level, to come up with a workable answer. We have had a pumping plant authorized for Steele Bayou in the southern part of the Mississippi delta since 1947, no money has been set aside to build this project as of yet. They've waited so long now the whole thing will have to be reworked, environmental studies, the inevitable lawsuits. Only so much money for so many things.
     

    MauserLarry

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    If the Old River Lock ever fails it wont be an issue as the Mississippi will have a new route to the Gulf vis the Atchafalaya River basin.

    It's not the lock so much as the control structure itself. I know we have been scared several times about the thing failing. The Atchafalaya is swift and a straight shot to the gulf, the Mississippi River really wants to go that way. It probably will eventually happen but I hope I'm gone from this world a few hundred years before it gives away.

    Good article on the thing.

    https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/If-Old-River-Control-Structure-Fails-Catastrophe-Global-Impact
     

    FrommerStop

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    We all know that public works are always about money. When it is about such funding it also becomes about politics, pressure groups, and just how good are your local politicians at securing funding. I am not an engineer, but the last years of my career at the university of west florida did get involved with looking at contaminated sediments and saw some of that at work.
    Mauser Larry I am not sure where you are on the food chain at the AEC and I will say here that it is the major federal group that is involved with anything requiring construction. I know pensacola has a couple superfund woodtreating sites and AEC coordinated the cleans ups. In the past they even built things like post offices.
    An organization like this is always hungry for work that they need to keep themselves fed. The big question is funding and how funding will be allocated.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Quote Originally Posted by Famine View Post
    If the Old River Lock ever fails it wont be an issue as the Mississippi will have a new route to the Gulf vis the Atchafalaya River basin.
    It's not the lock so much as the control structure itself. I know we have been scared several times about the thing failing. The Atchafalaya is swift and a straight shot to the gulf, the Mississippi River really wants to go that way. It probably will eventually happen but I hope I'm gone from this world a few hundred years before it gives away.

    Good article on the thing.

    https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/If-Old-River-Control-Structure-Fails-Catastrophe-Global-Impact
    Article discusses blockage of barge traffic. We had a mini-crisis like that at the pensacola Monsanto plant a few years ago after a barge tow damaged the bridge over pensacola bay. Until repairs got made, the barges taking raw liquid materials had to come in by truck and also rail. The people there told me that they managed, but they had trucks backed up trying to get them in and out with their loads. The local Crist Power plant also receives its coal via barge.
    Dredging is needed for that barge traffic. In the past the dredge spoils were just dumped where ever they could like on the bank in spoil piles in bay or river as was convenient. Now they have a specific place for spoils at the mouth of the Escambia River.
    Orange arrow shows the new macky spoil island and other arrows show some of the multiple spoil piles from the past just dumped on the bank on the private property of others. Makes a good place for a hunting camp, but I never heard of anyone putting a camp on one.
    Inkedmacky spoil island_LI.jpg
     

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    MauserLarry

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    We all know that public works are always about money. When it is about such funding it also becomes about politics, pressure groups, and just how good are your local politicians at securing funding. I am not an engineer, but the last years of my career at the university of west florida did get involved with looking at contaminated sediments and saw some of that at work.
    Mauser Larry I am not sure where you are on the food chain at the AEC and I will say here that it is the major federal group that is involved with anything requiring construction. I know pensacola has a couple superfund woodtreating sites and AEC coordinated the cleans ups. In the past they even built things like post offices.
    An organization like this is always hungry for work that they need to keep themselves fed. The big question is funding and how funding will be allocated.

    I like the food chain comment! My part of the chain is actually doing the work the other end of the chain thinks of.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Some are having fun.

    66765834_1226117344216412_8536610331047231488_n.jpg
     

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    FrommerStop

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    Here is how the storm actually is now.

    64962360_1226179540876859_3429964455998390272_o.jpg

    Here is a story from New Orleans about Hurricane Betsy that you will not find in a history book. The Industrial Canal is to the east of the downtown canal street area. Betsy blew water up into all of water ways abd the wind pressure should have sent it over the west side of the industrial canal into downtown new orleans.
    A fellow that lives in the 9th ward told me that the neighbors spotted a tug boat that was attempting to place dynamite on the levee on the east side where the ninth ward was. This was to prevent it breaching the levee on the west side that would cause flooding of the down town area. At gun point they ran the tug boat off. The levee later on was breached by water on the east side lower down in a black area. A white couple that lived there showed me a picture that they took of the breached area. There were three piles of dirt that were sitting there with the claim that is where the dynamite charges threw up the dirt.
    I did not see it happen, but know what powerful people are capable of when it is in their financial interests are threatened.
     

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