"Folding and telescoping Braces", Pistols, vertical foregrips and OAL: ATF Latest Lt

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Gulf Coast States

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,897
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    One must read this very carefully and apparently a folding brace is likely not the same as a folding stock which was my worry if I understand this correctly. So pistols with a straight forearm and an arm brace as defined by ATF letter are fine. But putting a brace as defined by the ATF on a gun with the rifle or shotgun folded that is less 26 inches if I got it right is NFA.
    Anyway my AK with East german folder in the folded position is just a little over 26 inches and it is not an arm brace. The ATF is laying a dangerous legal course for us. Is it a brace or folding stock, that is the question that can send people to prison.

    The key wording is "That is, a folding stock on a rifle or shotgun is included in the overall length measurement because the firearm must be designed or redesigned, made or remade and intended to be fired from the shoulder" to be so classified.

    ATF overall length.jpg
     

    Attachments

    • ATF overall length.jpg
      ATF overall length.jpg
      253.8 KB · Views: 263

    stage20

    Master
    GCGF Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    88   0   0
    Joined
    Jun 30, 2018
    Messages
    8,081
    Points
    113
    Location
    pensacola
    It's in black and white but a lot of grey areas. Are pistols not to be fired from the shoulder anymore? Is there going to be confusion about what an angled grip and a vertical grip is? Oh boy.
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,897
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    It's in black and white but a lot of grey areas. Are pistols not to be fired from the shoulder anymore? Is there going to be confusion about what an angled grip and a vertical grip is? Oh boy.
    There is no mention of prohibiting pistols being fired from the shoulder. One must precisely follow the twisted ATF wording with the proviso that they can issue a new missive contradicting everything. But, in this case the ATF is being consistent, or at least sort of, with the previous rulings, but with refinements. I am interested in the AR pistol with arm brace for a lot of reasons.

    Big thing is do your own reading and the sky is not falling too much at the moment. Just do not put an arm brace on a rifle that will measure less than 26 inches when folded. I do not like vertical grips do not have them on my guns.
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    A "shoulder stock is a "stock" (folding, tele or fixed) is a Stock and measured "fully extended" for OAL.
    A pistol Brace is a "accessory" (Braces that are Folding, Tele, W/adapter & fixed Braces that extend beyond pistol integeral parts like buffer tube or reciever end) are not a Stock: accordingly, the length of these accessory parts (like removable muzzle devices) are not counted towards firearm OAL.

    Some owners and Mfrs following different (prior) interpretations may have configurtions at or exceeding 26 inches including brace components: and also installed a vertical foregrip which would be a NFA AOW.

    Its interesting that ATF sent these letters "unsolicited" to individuals that had requested and received old guidance. Looks like BATFE is keeping a searchable Database on who asks what and when! Of course, ATF has not distributed this "new" guidance to the general public as far as I know.
     

    Snake-Eyes

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Joined
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages
    3,416
    Points
    113
    Location
    Florida
    According to the letter, if it's a rifle or shotgun, then measure the OAL with the Stock in its usable position (extended?, not sure, but definitely not folded), since a rifle/shotgun is designed to be used with a stock. If it's a pistol, measure OAL without the brace. So, if a folding brace, measure it folded. If a straight brace on a tube, measure to the end of the tube (or AR receiver tube). If an AR pistol with folding brace (like using a LAW adapter), measure OAL to the end of the receiver tube in its functioning/extended position, not folded, since the AR is designed to work with a receiver tube.

    What is the OAL you're looking for? For a rifle or shotgun: greater than or equal to 26". Shorter than that is an SBR/SBS under the NFA. For a pistol: less than 26" means you can conceal it but no vertical pistol grip, and it isn't an AOW in the NFA. A "pistol" equal to or greater than 26" can't be concealed, but you can have a vertical foregrip. If it's 26" or longer and you conceal it, then it needs to be an AOW...
    The "firearms" known as Mossberg Shockwaves and Remington Tac-14's need to remain longer than 26" OAL to stay away from AOW status.

    Clear as mud?

    SB Tactical has an FAQ that explains some of this , too:

    https://www.sb-tactical.com/about/compliance-story/
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    Boiled down: You can't use pistol brace or adapter parts in measuring OAL.

    A. If your pistol IS 26 inches or more without those parts you can have a vertical foregrip.
    B. If your pistol IS less than 26 inches you need to follow NFA get a AOW Stamp before you add it to the pistol.

    Prior configurations private or Factory could get you in trouble. I wonder if this originated with the ATF or are the DOJ legal experts are doing decision reviews AND exercising their power over ATF and Citizens. Another "Change" from lawful to criminal with the stroke of a pen.
     

    SAWMAN

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Joined
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages
    13,937
    Points
    113
    Location
    Cantonment,Fla.
    My interests are:
    1. NEVER (EVER) doing the paperwork and paying money for a SBR,SBS,AOW,or supressor. ( But obviously staying legal.)
    2. Owning a Shockwave (or two) configured (mostly) "as is" from the factory and the submitted drawings, "blessed" by ATF.
    3. Owning a AR pistol or three,never adding a vertical grip to the forearm and keeping all of them 26 inches plus (so that I wont be tempted to shove them down in my Levi's pocket ). Oh . . . and none of them full auto.
    How do you above guys think I'm doing so far ?? Am I fixin' to go to jail or remain a "model citizen" ?? --- SAWMAN
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,897
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    It is the concealable thing I am worried about and I need to read how ATF in their own words defines that. MY AK with a folder in folded position just barely fits into a tennis racket case. Has 16 inch barrel and is 26 inches plus overall length. Is that concealment?
     

    RedcedarHunter

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    616
    Points
    43
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    If you have a LAW folder installed on a Pistol lower....you can still measure to the end of the extension tube with the LAW locked in place correct?
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    If you have a LAW folder installed on a Pistol lower....you can still measure to the end of the extension tube with the LAW locked in place correct?

    Non lawyer response:
    ATF Ltr, Par 2, last sentence referes. So if its a folding device/adapter used to mount a "Brace" it's measured while folded. You actually loose the length of the buffer tube and the adapter: only barrel muzzle to end of receiver counts.

    ATF Ltr does not differentiate between the firearm being in a "operational" condition (able to fire) or not; only if the firearm has a folding Brace or none folding long buffer tubes/extentions that exceed what's mechanically required: in order to circumvent the Law.
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    It is the concealable thing I am worried about and I need to read how ATF in their own words defines that. MY AK with a folder in folded position just barely fits into a tennis racket case. Has 16 inch barrel and is 26 inches plus overall length. Is that concealment?

    Non Lawyer
    As a "Rifle" that meets the 16 inch barrel: the folding "Stock" is measured unfolded and at full extension; for a OAL that meets or exceeds the 26 inch minimum. Your good.
     

    Snake-Eyes

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Joined
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages
    3,416
    Points
    113
    Location
    Florida
    So, my opinion is the ATF and the NFA are both full of shit, but who am I, right?...

    Doing the due diligence that only a good Citizen attempting to obey the law would do (thanks for the extra hoops three-letter agents, are the streets safer from criminals because of it?), I find more and more conflicting info.

    Less than two-years ago, the ATF said they measured OAL from muzzle to the end of the extended and unfolded brace.
    Now they say it's from the muzzle to the end of the hinge with brace folded, or the end of the receiver tube with brace removed.

    Redcedarhunter, I'd say it has to goto the end of the receiver tube on an AR pistol because that tube is necessary for function. If they made the argument that the folding hinge is an accessory and makes the tube not count, then by that "rationale" all Ruger takedown rifles would be SBRs. But again, who am I. They are the ones with the power to arrest.

    Frommerstop, I always was under the impression that concealed carry of a rifle or shotgun was verboten without an AOW stamp. But plenty of folks carry takedowns on hikes, etc, so who knows. State law vs federal? Florida's CWL would seem to allow it ("weapon", not "handgun"). But maybe it's the same tightrope that "legal marijuana" use entails... Again, who am I.

    That letter linked in post #1 closes with something to the effect of anything that disagrees with that letter is null and void. A letter, sent to one person. Not broadly disseminated. Policy changes flip-flopped carrying the weight of "law".

    Again, that's the ATF for you. But who am I...

    From the interwebs:
    IMG_2614.JPG
    IMG_2615.JPG
    IMG_2616.jpg
    IMG_2617.jpg
     

    Attachments

    • IMG_2614.JPG
      IMG_2614.JPG
      52.6 KB · Views: 153
    • IMG_2615.JPG
      IMG_2615.JPG
      42.6 KB · Views: 161
    • IMG_2616.jpg
      IMG_2616.jpg
      190 KB · Views: 157
    • IMG_2617.jpg
      IMG_2617.jpg
      89.1 KB · Views: 142

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    So, my opinion is the ATF and the NFA are both full of shit, but who am I, right?...

    I agree with your distain and disgust with the ATF flip flopping on serious matters that could make lawful citizens into criminals with no notification of ATF changes to technical decisions. Two years ago bump fire stocks were legal too. The Gov/ATF was sued because of the flip flop decisions on the Atkins Accelerator device for the 10/22. First Official Ltr said it was an accessory: good to go! Item went in full production and sold thousands until ATF change their position declaring it a machine gun/part. Guy had to recall kits sold and went bankrupt which led to the lawsuit. Court Ruled the Agency was empowered to interpet the Laws/regs and as such can change its position of those interpretations.

    ATF isn't making an arguement, just a Statement with the their justification. Its clear on what counts and doesn't count towards OAL for pistols with folding braces AND extended buffer tubes on fixed Braces. Nothing in the Ltr references an operational or non operational configurations: it doesn't matter to the pistol/brace OAL measurement . Evidently, ATF sent copies of this Ltr to individuals and companies that it had issued prior technical decisions on for "Braces". ATF also put caveats on each technical decision letter as applying only to the person addressed for the specific items addressed. So, Mr Gun Ho gets tagged with a pistol 24 inch pistol with a vertical foregrip and says he is in compliance with the 2 year old Ltr. Nope, that Ltr was not addressed to "HIM". How about the manufactured "factory" pistols that no longer comply? ATF will tell them what to do to correct the "Now" in violation pistols.

    On Fl CWFL, the Statute for it defines what a "Weapon" and "Firearm" are. Firearms are restricted to "handguns" and "machineguns" are specifically prohibited. A NFA A.O.W. becomes "that" with registration approval and Stamp. It is technically no longer a handgun, got all the required Mfr engraving and Serial Number.

    Yes, its a Grade A shit show! I don't defend what ATF puts out. I put my non Lawyer opinion posts with the presumption that the people asking the questions: don't want to go to jail.
     
    Last edited:

    Snake-Eyes

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Joined
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages
    3,416
    Points
    113
    Location
    Florida
    I looked up the FL statutes again.
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/STATUTES...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html

    790.06 redefines "concealed weapons" and "concealed firearms" for that section to soecifically include handguns,etc but not shotguns or rifles. It excludes "machine guns" as defined by 790.001(9), which is the 'more than one shot by single function of the trigger' ambiguous shit. It doesn't specifically mention AOWs anywhere (prohibited or allowed), but I agree: once something is an AOW, it's no longer a "handgun".

    So, since the statute redefined "firearm" to not include shotguns and rifles, I guess you cannot legally conceal a shotty or rifle with your CWL?
    And, since adding a vertical foregrip to your under-26" pistol makes it an AOW, you can't conceal that either.

    Brain hurts now. Too much legal BS.
    Where do suppressors fall in this field of muddy "law"? Can I carry a concealed suppressor with my FL CWL?
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,897
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    I looked up the FL statutes again.
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/STATUTES...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html

    790.06 redefines "concealed weapons" and "concealed firearms" for that section to soecifically include handguns,etc but not shotguns or rifles. It excludes "machine guns" as defined by 790.001(9), which is the 'more than one shot by single function of the trigger' ambiguous shit. It doesn't specifically mention AOWs anywhere (prohibited or allowed), but I agree: once something is an AOW, it's no longer a "handgun".

    So, since the statute redefined "firearm" to not include shotguns and rifles, I guess you cannot legally conceal a shotty or rifle with your CWL?
    And, since adding a vertical foregrip to your under-26" pistol makes it an AOW, you can't conceal that either.

    Brain hurts now. Too much legal BS.
    Where do suppressors fall in this field of muddy "law"? Can I carry a concealed suppressor with my FL CWL?
    Any idea how the feds define 'concealable'? From listening to lawyers for FL there is a bit of case law that defines what it is to conceal a pistol and other weapons and some of the definitions did surprise me.
     

    Snake-Eyes

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Joined
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages
    3,416
    Points
    113
    Location
    Florida
    Any idea how the feds define 'concealable'? From listening to lawyers for FL there is a bit of case law that defines what it is to conceal a pistol and other weapons and some of the definitions did surprise me.

    From the NFA, it's "Any weapon or device capable of being concealed". It uses the 26" line to demarcate a "pistol". But there is a blurb that once you conceal something larger than 26", then you've proven it is CAPABLE of being concealed, so therefore, it becomes an AOW.

    So, the law assumes since rifles and shotguns are over 26", then they aren't concealable. Once you prove them wrong by concealing it, then it falls under the AOW umbrella of stupid.

    Again, I feel the NFA is antiquated BS, and the ATFE should be an adult department store, but what do I know...
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    BATFE Head honchos TELL biden team what ATF wants to take action on. No surprises here:

     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,897
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    BATFE Head honchos TELL biden team what ATF wants to take action on. No surprises here:

    If Trump fires them and Biden is president, some of them might require senate confirmation that they might not get. I am not sure on that.
    But I say why not fire them anyway. How could they be any worse? Maybe I am afraid to hear the answer to that.
     
    Top Bottom