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Ignorance of the law may sometimes be an excuse

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  • joraca

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    New US Supreme Court gun case.

    Decided 7:2.

    JUSTICE BREYER delivered the opinion of the Court.

    A federal statute, 18 U. S. C. §922(g), provides that “t
    shall be unlawful” for certain individuals to possess firearms. The provision lists nine categories of individuals
    subject to the prohibition, including felons and aliens who
    are “illegally or unlawfully in the United States.” Ibid. A
    separate provision, §924(a)(2), adds that anyone who
    “knowingly violates” the first provision shall be fined or
    imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Emphasis added.)
    The question here concerns the scope of the word “knowingly.” Does it mean that the Government must prove
    that a defendant knew both that he engaged in the relevant conduct (that he possessed a firearm) and also that
    he fell within the relevant status (that he was a felon, an
    alien unlawfully in this country, or the like)? We hold that
    the word “knowingly” applies both to the defendant’s
    conduct and to the defendant’s status. To convict a defendant, the Government therefore must show that the
    defendant knew he possessed a firearm and also that he
    knew he had the relevant status when he possessed it.

    Petitioner Hamid Rehaif entered the United States on a
    nonimmigrant student visa to attend university. After he
    received poor grades, the university dismissed him and
    told him that his “‘immigration status’” would be terminated unless he transferred to a different university or left
    the country. App. to Pet. for Cert. 3a. Rehaif did neither.
    Rehaif subsequently visited a firing range, where he
    shot two firearms. The Government learned about his
    target practice and prosecuted him for possessing firearms
    as an alien unlawfully in the United States, in violation of
    §922(g) and §924(a)(2). At the close of Rehaif ’s trial, the
    judge instructed the jury (over Rehaif ’s objection) that the
    “United States is not required to prove” that Rehaif “knew
    that he was illegally or unlawfully in the United States.”
    App. to Pet. for Cert. 4a (internal quotation marks omitted). The jury returned a guilty verdict, and Rehaif was
    sentenced to 18 months’ imprisonment.

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/18pdf/17-9560_e2p3.pdf
     

    FrommerStop

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    What bothers me is that Hamid never purchased a firearm, but from the description only fired them. I suspect there is more to the story that we are not being told as to why the government went after him. There was another recent case on the 13.5 max length of an arm brace where such information is not published in any publicly available source like the federal register. Such information is given to certain manufacturers and never to the public by ATF.
     

    stage20

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    If you're a felon. You know it. If your illegal, you know it. Just like you know everything else. Ignorance should not be an issue here. Just dumb.
     

    kidsoncoffee

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    IronBeard

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    Very common. Can't count the number of times I've heard something along the lines of "We aren't lawyers, we just arrest 'em and let the courts determine if they are guilty." I'm sure there has to be 'probable cause' for an arrest, but it's a bit concerning all the same.
     

    FLT

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    Yep that falls under the ( you may not do the time, but you are going to take the ride rule ) that can cause a lot of grief and money , maybe even your job. I’m afraid we’ve transgressed in to the liberal promoted guilty until proven innocent stage.
     

    fl57caveman

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    ignorance of the law does not help us citizens, but they give benefit of doubt to illegals..

    no excuse, deport them...
     

    stage20

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    ignorance of the law does not help us citizens, but they give benefit of doubt to illegals..

    no excuse, deport them...

    I had a guy let his workers comp lapse.....how am I supposed to know? This is before everything was on the internet. Now I can check in 15 seconds and know, regardless of what paperwork something new gives me and says they are legal. Court told me ignorance of the law was not an excuse to break it. Cost me a grand in finds alone and a daynoff work. Not to mention 80 dollars to print last 2 years checking record. I sure would like to be omitted so I can do as I please
     

    wildrider666

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    Possession means "in control of" under the law: could be in your hand or in the trunk of a car you are driving or house you live in. Like possesion of stolen property. Ownership is a seperate issue. Resident Aliens can buy firearms.

    The "Law" in question specifically has the requirement of "knowingly". Therefore, in this application; not knowing or ignorance of the Law IS a lawful defense. The original Case Judges jury instructions were in error when he said the Prosecution did not have to prove defendants "knowledge": it is a required element.

    All Laws don't say "knowingly", most just state "violates". Ignorance of the Law is not a universal excuse, never has been.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Possession means "in control of" under the law: could be in your hand or in the trunk of a car you are driving or house you live in. Like possesion of stolen property. Ownership is a seperate issue. Resident Aliens can buy firearms.

    The "Law" in question specifically has the requirement of "knowingly". Therefore, in this application; not knowing or ignorance of the Law IS a lawful defense. The original Case Judges jury instructions were in error when he said the Prosecution did not have to prove defendants "knowledge": it is a required element.

    All Laws don't say "knowingly", most just state "violates". Ignorance of the Law is not a universal excuse, never has been.
    So possession could be just picking a gun up to look at it in a gunshop and then put it down walk away. When I said it bothers me, does not mean that I thought the charge was not legal.
     

    wildrider666

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    I agree with the Dissenting Opinion not the Majority Opinion which gives extreme weight to the word "knowledge" and application that previously did not exist nor recognized as such in lower Courts.

    More to the Story. I've foĺlowed this one for awhile. Defendants actions raised civilian suspicions (possible terrorist) which were reported to police who then contacted the FBI. He admitted to the FBI he had over stayed his Visa, consented to hotel room search; where remaining ammo was found. FBI did its thing (looking for a big fish) but ultimately only concluded 1.Suspect over stayed his Vise. 2. Suspect was an illegal alien when he "possesed" a firearm (and purchased ammo) (Two Counts) rented and used at a retail firing range business (small fish). FBI could also have additional suspicions and circumstantial evidence but prosecuted what they could prove.

    SCOTUS Majority Opinion roughly says if one Statute relies on another; the parameters (knowingly) of the other referenced Statute apply also and with highest scrutiny. This throws ALL prior Case with related "knowingly" text issues under the bus. This is no less damaging then when SCOTUS Majority changed "Fine" to "Penalty" in obamacare Case. Some are already hailing the decision as Criminal Justice Reform!
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    Why is this UAE POS allowed to waste the SCOTUS' time? He was here on a student visa. He flunked out a year into his schooling. It's unbelievable that he never signed anything that acknowledged the ramifications of failing out, or even what his visa terms were, or how long it applied for.

    Regardless, after staying here illegally for a YEAR, he gets caught by the FBI, following up on tips from people who saw him shooting at the range. He admits to the FBI that not only did he know he was here illegally, but he also illegally purchased three firearms and either sold or gave them away already.

    He was sentenced to 18-months plus 2-years parole. That was in May of 2016? That little shit is just using wordsmithing and LAWYERS to get out of what is (in my honest opinion) Too LIGHT of a sentence. A flunk-out illegal alien who bought three firearms illegally. He was NEVER authorized to buy a gun; even when he was still in school. The fact that he didn't know that is partially his fault for not knowing the laws of the country he is going to live in on a visa, and it's the fault of the visa process for not having a blurb that they make the person sign stating they are responsible for reading USC sections blah blah, and it's the fault of the lazy SOBs who sold the gun to a foreigner without proper ID.

    I'm held legally responsible for knowing the concealed carry laws of every state I might visit.
    I'm held legally responsible for knowing the asinine chop-your-hand-off laws of every foreign country I might visit.

    If this dirtbag was so Wrongfully treated, let the UAE pay for lawyers and represent him. No? Oh that's right, because he knew full well he was wrong. He knew full well he was here illegally.

    That's ONE illegal alien. Challenging our laws AFTER getting caught. I wonder what the courts will be like after the armies of lawyers start "defending" the MILLIONS of illegals already invading our territory? What a crock of shit.

    Why isn't his ass already deported?

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdfl/pr/unlawful-alien-convicted-possession-firearms-and-ammunition
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    Honestly, I'd be pleasantly surprised if they don't. Because it's not.

    Perhaps he had a driver's license because of his visa (which is BS, but whatever).
    Perhaps he found sellers who didn't ask for ID at all.
    Perhaps he found a seller who was a criminal.
    Perhaps he had a fake ID.
    Perhaps he participated in a straw purchase with an acquaintance.

    It doesn't matter. He is an adult. He's here on a student visa. He should know the rules. He broke them... REPEATEDLY.
    He only stopped because he got Caught.

    Put him on a slow boat to the Mediterranean. Make him pay for the ticket. Get his worthless carcass out of our Country.
     
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