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Using small base .223 die, my experience today

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  • Daezee

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    So I quickly found my Ruger AR556 MPR doesn't play well with my reloads. Plenty (too many!) failures to fully chamber and extract the fired cases on that rounds that did chamber, like 1 in 4 or 5 or so. Functioned 100% with factory brass and steel cased ammo. When it fired, my loads seemed nicely accurate. No case mouth or shoulder bulges to interfere with chambering.

    So I get out my micrometer and SAAMI .223 specs and find that my Lee sizing die is sizing at or near SAAMI max spec, with a few cases being around .0005 or so over max. Yes the sizing die was tight against the shell holder. As best I could figure from measuring cases fired in the MPR, its chamber is at or near SAAMI minimum specs (fired cases in the body and case head (aka web) would be smaller than what my sizing die was sizing by 1-2 thousands). Measuring factory loads, the cases were 3-4 thousands smaller than SAAMI max specs...no wonder they chambered fine.

    Looking through my stuff, I found 2 more Lee sizing dies (included when I'd buy somebody's whole reloading set up, mainly going for the powder, cases, bullets, primers and other equipment). Found 1 Lee die sized brass exactly like the Lee die I'd been using for years. Found the other extra Lee sizer would size the case head and about 1/3rd up the case body .001" more than the other 2 dies. Immediately set that tighter die up to use for regular use, but did not try it in the Ruger, as my RCBS small base die arrived shortly thereafter.

    The SB die would size brass cases .001" smaller at the case head and body than the "tight" Lee die. On steel cases it reduced the body part by .001", but did not seem to reduce the case head (web) any smaller than the tight Lee die (springback?). Ran a quick small test of 27 brass cases and 2 steel cases reloaded after running through the SB die. All chambered, fired, and extracted with no problems. I need to do more testing before loading a quantity of ammo for the Ruger MPR, but even if they don't function in the Ruger, I know they'll do fine in my other more generous chambered AR bbls. For now, I'm shooting factory steel in the MPR, as I now have a good use for it. I am contemplating just using the SB die for all my .223/5.56 reloading.
     

    FrommerStop

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    RCBS dies at least in the past cost more and you got a better product and perhaps that is still true.

    Interesting about the steel cases and reloading them. I had wondered about full length resizing of steel cases. Since I have a 5 gallon bucket full of once fired GI brass from the estate of a deceased NRA high power shooter I have no plans to reload steel case 5.56. I thought most of it was berdan too.
    Anyone ever try to make 300 blkout from steel cases?
     

    Daezee

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    I've been reloading boxer primed steel .223 cases for years. Will give some bullet points about them below and mention some pistol reloading:

    They don't seem to stretch in length as much as brass cases do. When they get over max length (4 or so reloads), I toss. I tried trimming once, but it appeared rough on my trimmer (noise and chattering and didn't seem easy to trim), so I stopped before I hurt my trimmer. I don't recall split necks, just slow stretching in length until I toss.

    Lightly chamfer inside the mouth the first time, otherwise the sharp edge can shave off material from the bullet jacket.

    I don't use any with rust...I think it would scratch my die.

    No evidence of being harder on the sizing die...after all, a coat of lube is between the die and the case.

    The act of tumbling and reloading makes the outside much smoother feeling than on factory loaded steel cases. Reload the case enough and areas turn silver shiny as any factory coating has been worn off. No rust, but I keep them in my dehumidified shed. I have one bbl that chokes on factory steel, but runs my steel reloads fine...I suspect because the cases are smoother.

    A lot of berdan primed steel is around...look inside the case with a flash light to be sure unless it's boxer primed stuff that you have caught in your brass catcher. Wolf, TULA, and Golden Tiger make both berdan and boxer primed steel. Often they will mark on the box what type of primer, but not always. I have cases of boxer primed steel .223, so I don't have to check that.

    I use the same powder charge as for brass with no noticed problems and the same accuracy.

    Slightly harder to resize than brass.

    With the abundance of brass cases, there's really no pressing reason to reload steel today, but I'm used to doing it, so I'll keep on. People shooting boxer primed steel just give it to you...they don't want the steel "brass".

    I tried once to make a steel 300 Blackout case, but it dulled my cutoff saw blade before I even got through the once case, so I stopped and never tried again. (See above, trimming steel.)

    I also reload boxer primed steel .45 auto, aluminum case boxer primed .38 special, 9mm, .380, and 45 auto. Use "fresh" fired aluminum cases, not ones that have laid out in the elements and have started to corrode like aluminum cans do. Aluminum cases split after 3-5 shots. Like steel, there's a lot of berdan primed aluminum cases out there too. I use the same powder charges as for brass cases. All pistol cases are reloaded using carbide sizing dies.
     

    FrommerStop

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    That is a lot of experience there. The only steel cases I would do are when there is no other good choice. I have neck sized years ago some 7.62x54. It was berdan (I think finish) and the .254 primers I had were too thin being meant for shotguns so the firing pin was puncturing the primers. Loads were light and no harm done. There were some case neck splits IIRC. This was back in the 60's. i am short of 8 mm mauser, but I can make it from 30-06 or buy some boxer primed loads and save the cases. Bolt guns do not eat quite so much ammo and so fewer cases will get you by. .
     

    wildrider666

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    FWIW: The small base dies fixed your "application" (to reload) but that does not fix the chamber issue. IMHO your chamber is very tight and Cartridge Factory "in spec ammo" (just like your first reload batch) may not function! Every round that's in specifications should chamber, fire and extract, that's what you paid for. The .223 is SAAMI spec, while 5.56 is a mil std and there is some variance as noted in the Link. It's a well known problem and the reason small base dies sell so well. The Link OP was having the same type issues but he had problems with FACTORY ammo, him or another guy had issues with factory "Remanufactured" cartridges. I've read a few Posts on different blogs on chamber issues and when rifles are sent back to Ruger THEY fix it. You might want to check the Staking on the BCG, many reports of light/no contact! Good luck with it either way.

    https://rugerforum.net/ruger-semi-auto/134742-ar556-issues.html
     

    FrommerStop

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    If a rifle works well with all factory and there is not excess headspace the chamber does not merit a return of the rifle to the manufacturer. Most gun makers do not warranty their guns for reloads. If it works well and is safe with factory there is little basis for a complaint that the chamber is less than the SAMMI.
    There are some guns from which any fired brass will be enlarged to the point that it needs a small base die. I have not yet reloaded for the AR15 so I do not know what is needed relative to resizing for it.
     

    Zeroed in

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    If you are using only 1 barrel, why would you want to re-size the cases when you reload? It's my understanding the case is fire formed to that particular barrel, and will chamber back after reloading w/o re-sizing, increasing the accuracy. Is my understanding of reloading out in left field? I am a beginner loader, so am I?
     

    16gauge

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    RCBS Small base dies cure a lot of problems with picky chambers. You will use them with Browning BAR's as their chambers are notoriously tight and on NEF Handy Rifles. Both brands shoot factory ammo with no problems. As stated above no manufacturer will cover the use of reloads. I have as many Lee dies as I do RCBS with a few Hornady and Lyman mixed in and have been reloading over 40 years. I have only had 1 or 2 dies give me any trouble over that period no matter the brand. As to the comment about not having to re-size if only 1 barrel is used, you still have to at least neck size the case for the bullet to hold and seat.
     

    FrommerStop

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    If you are using only 1 barrel, why would you want to re-size the cases when you reload? It's my understanding the case is fire formed to that particular barrel, and will chamber back after reloading w/o re-sizing, increasing the accuracy. Is my understanding of reloading out in left field? I am a beginner loader, so am I?
    With most semiauto guns full length sizing is normally recommended. You do not want a tight fit for proper functioning in semiauto weapons. I have seen recommendation for partial resizing for bolt guns when loading fighting and hunting ammo.
    When one is neck sizing it is a good idea to bump the shoulder back a little to make chambering easier and prevent potential pressure problems. If you screw you neck sizing die down to the shell holder you are probably bumping the shoulder a little.
     

    Daezee

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    If you are using only 1 barrel, why would you want to re-size the cases when you reload? It's my understanding the case is fire formed to that particular barrel, and will chamber back after reloading w/o re-sizing, increasing the accuracy. Is my understanding of reloading out in left field? I am a beginner loader, so am I?

    Like many gun nuts, I may have more than one firearm for any given cartridge. I just don't feel like having a myriad of containers of brass to be kept separated per firearm (although in 1 instance I do that...I use SAA 6.8 brass in the Wilson 6.8 and FC 6.8 brass in the Remington M700 6.8 since both rifles like the same bullet, but differing powder charges, so the different brass helps keep the loads separated if any were to spill from the boxes). One of my goals, somewhat met, but not at 100% is to work up a load or loads that will give fine accuracy in multiple firearms so as to not have a myriad of loads. For example: 26.5gr W748, CCI 41 primers, Hornady 55gr fmj bullets, 2.25-2.26" oal very gives nice accuracy for a fmj bullet from every .223/5.56 bbl I have except for one...I always have that load on hand.

    With my 30-40 Krag, I only neck size (only have 1 rifle in that caliber) for my mild loads. However, after around 3 or so firings, the case gets harder to chamber, so I set those aside for a full length resizing. Any reloader has to work out what works best for him/her and his/her firearms.

    Back to the SB die discussion a couple of things I had not mentioned, as I didn't know that it helped:

    1) When I first fired the Ruger MPR, I noticed marks going around the case from the chamber. Using fine (for light polishing) grit and then extra fine (for finish/mirror like polishing) grit, I polished the chamber. It did nothing to help the initial problem, but did make the fired case marks noticeably less visible. Using a mirror for viewing chambers, it looks nice and shiny. Also wanted to make sure no gunk was in the chamber.

    2) I have a .223 Lyman case gage (I got it used with no instructions). All my reloads tested fit into the gage just fine with no pushing them in...they'd just plunk into the gage by their weight. Thinking that maybe the gage is more for determining max case length and shoulder to case head length setting of your sizing die, I measuring inside the gage as best I could today. I found that in the case head area of the gage that it was bigger than the SAAMI maximum specs for .223 by about .002". Therefore, to use it as a go/no-go case size gage thinking that if the loaded cartridge went fully into the gage it would therefore chamber in the firearm, was wrong. I had thought it was also a cartridge gage for chambering purposes since unsized cases would not enter, but sized cases would. Once upon a time I had a Wilson 300 Blackout gage, yet had some chambering problems. Wilson emailed me that it was not for determining the max cartridge size for chamber, but only case length and shoulder position, as the inside was larger than SAAMI specs for case diameter...that was my ah-ha thought last night, so nearly the first thing this morning was to measure that .223 gage and confirm my suspicion.

    Off to the neighbor's range to test more loads done with the SB die.
     

    Daezee

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    Back from the *neighbor's range. 40 more shots fired using small base die reloads. Perfect functioning. I'm satisfied. Oh, my above listed load shot fine in the MPR.

    * = I count myself as one lucky shooter having a neighbor with a range I can access. I made 2 shooting benches for the range. One can shoot up to 200yds there.

    PS. Just found this from Lee written to a reloader having case sizing problems:

    "Lee rifle sizing dies do not size the fired case all the way back down to SAAMI minimum. Through experience Lee has found that the chambers of most guns are large enough and sizing the cases to minimum unnecessarily overworks the case and results in shortened case life."
     
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    wildrider666

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    With most semiauto guns full length sizing is normally recommended. You do not want a tight fit for proper functioning in semiauto weapons. I have seen recommendation for partial resizing for bolt guns when loading fighting and hunting ammo.
    When one is neck sizing it is a good idea to bump the shoulder back a little to make chambering easier and prevent potential pressure problems. If you screw you neck sizing die down to the shell holder you are probably bumping the shoulder a little.

    IMHO, that's not generally true. RCBS says: Small Base Dies are recommended for Auto, Semi-auto and Lever actions. Full length dies are recommended for bolt guns. Full Length dies are self explanatory. Small Base Dies reduce dimensions from the Shoulder to the Head by a few thousandths and in some application's also sets the Shoulder back. Simply put: Short Base dies form a dimensionally smaller Case than Full Length dies.

    Cases fire formed from your rifles chamber, followed by neck sizing is for bolt guns, it can help accuracy. This method does not work well in other action types.

    No doubt some exemption can be found. Years ago I used Full Length 30-06 dies with no issues for a semi-auto Remmington 742. Seems OP was using full length dies for this caliber with success until the application to his AR556 which obviously has tighter chamber dimensions.

    Some other Commentors may have missed some points. From the Link and my Posts. "Factory" Armscor, Independence and Geco ammo failed to fit in the their AR556 rifles. Link also showed eight different common chamber reamers with varying specs that showed up to .0015" in base diameters! I don't know what reamer Ruger uses for the AR556 (they may mfr their own). We also know that some times factory ammo dimensions can "creep" due to worn tooling but still falls within "specs". "Tight chambers may not tolerate it.

    Folks are correct that firearm mfrs don't want you to use reloaded ammo nor care about problems you have with reloads. I agree. My comment on reloads referred to reloads being made dimensionally WITHIN the "correct specifications" (SAAMI or Mil Spec). Same = Same: should fit and manually cycle. Powders (ball vs extruded) can cause a difference in pressure wave/duration (early M16 ssue) and cause extraction problems but you need functional clambering first. If the case is snug but bolt force (or Fwd Assist) drives it fully into the chamber; it will more than likely have more resistance to extraction after being fired.

    Small Base Dies are definitely the way to go with a Semi-auto. In OPs and AR556 mentioned in the Link that cures a Symptom but not the Problem. OP can be happy, end of story. On the other hand, he could see a great deal on cheap factory ammo and end up with a few thousand rounds that won't fit his AR556s chamber, not a happy ending. Remember, this is "In Spec ammo", so who's problem is it?

    As frequent as this issue is, Ruger is familiar with it and has fixed other AR556s though they don't say exactly what repair/replacement work was done (most mfr don't say as it's a matter of admitting specific problems). OPs AR556 may or may not be under Warranty. Some issues are fixed by great Mfrs regardless of Warranty for known issues. If OP is interested, he can call Ruger Customer Service and get their position on Chamber vs some factory ammo not fitting. I checked Ruger Recall Page and this issue was not listed.

    Just my opinions, all others are valued too.
     

    SAWMAN

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    My first expierance using small base dies were when reloading for Mini-14. Before that my reloading was strickly for a 223Rem T/C pistol and rifle.
    The SB dies worked great for the 223Rem chamber in the Mini. That was back in the day that Ruger changed the Mini bbl twist rate to 1:10 and everyone said that it would pull bullets apart. --- SAWMAN
     

    FrommerStop

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    The m1 garand does not need small base dies in my experience. I would only use a small base die if experience shows that my guns need it for reliable function. I do not recall needing them for my very early series 180 mini-14. Serial number is very close to 1000 on that gun. Stop using it because after one or two shots the zero shifted about 8 moa above zero. A remington 742 in .308 needed it. I got rid of the 742 and probably should sell that mini-14 since it is a collectors item. Purchase about 1975 with an original ruger 30 round magazine that was intended for a police order.
     

    B52

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    The factory ammo is made to the small base detentions. Why not expect that from all full length dies (neck dies exception). Anything else from a die means it is not made properly. My chrome lined machine gun AR barrel only runs with factory ammo or SB sized reloads.
     

    oneshot

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    I don;t know much only been loading for about 50 yr. but a lot of what is said is right, but there is one thing no one has said any thing about. and I have run in to it a lot in the past, and now, even if your case fits in the case gauge after resizing . when you set the bullet, and put a cramp on the bullet you can push the shoulder out a couple of thousand. now depending on the chamber, the bolt can not close, or half close or close with enough force to close the bolt, and will fire or if you try to remove it , the bolt went open or hard to open or hard to close,, will just say one thing get a body die this has solved most of my problems. you use this on the loaded rd. last. thing. just 10 cents jj
     

    wildrider666

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    I don;t know much only been loading for about 50 yr. but a lot of what is said is right, but there is one thing no one has said any thing about. and I have run in to it a lot in the past, and now, even if your case fits in the case gauge after resizing . when you set the bullet, and put a cramp on the bullet you can push the shoulder out a couple of thousand. now depending on the chamber, the bolt can not close, or half close or close with enough force to close the bolt, and will fire or if you try to remove it , the bolt went open or hard to open or hard to close,, will just say one thing get a body die this has solved most of my problems. you use this on the loaded rd. last. thing. just 10 cents jj

    I'm not as experienced as JJ, so after reading his comment; I "tried" to get more info on Body Die use. Mfr "Redding" is the only one I could find that Lists Body Dies, unfortunately I couldn't find instructions, Link, download on how to use it. Item sales descriptions just state to use it then use a Neck Sizing die which is not compatable with a loaded cartridge. I looked around the Webb, folks talk about it as JJ references and other folks say there is a Mfr WARNING not to use it on loaded cartridges, others go further saying you'll blow up or kill Granny upstairs.

    So there's the dilemma: it works great doing what JJ and others say it will do while others protest it's a bad idea (or worse). Again, no Factory Instructions and if there is a caution or warning it could be a Lawyer thing like many others we read. So before you toss $35 to $100 for a Body Die, you might want to take a position on how you will use it.
     

    oneshot

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    I have put over 8000 rds of 223-556 in a body die in my 1050 super, use it in my last hole. Not such how meany 308 every one had a bullet in them It does what I need it to do Solved my problem Not such how a rd could go off in it , any more then one could in the setting die. or a crimping die It does not size the neck as I can tell. They say not to shoot reloads to. Just my 10 cents jj
     

    Jester896

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    I don;t know much only been loading for about 50 yr. but a lot of what is said is right, but there is one thing no one has said any thing about. and I have run in to it a lot in the past, and now, even if your case fits in the case gauge after resizing . when you set the bullet, and put a cramp on the bullet you can push the shoulder out a couple of thousand. now depending on the chamber, the bolt can not close, or half close or close with enough force to close the bolt, and will fire or if you try to remove it , the bolt went open or hard to open or hard to close,, will just say one thing get a body die this has solved most of my problems. you use this on the loaded rd. last. thing. just 10 cents jj

    yep...got about 50-75 a tad over crimped and didn't catch it. I have a Compass Lake barrel and them puppies wouldn't go in that tight chamber regularly....couldn't even bump it all the way into battery with the forward assist.

    My buddy has received incorrectly sized brass from some of the wholesale places that do it. We run it all we do through a SB die when we size it. Some of those military rifles (military range brass) have pretty big chambers and will lock down the Dillon hard.

    I keep body dies in several calibers
     
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