Re. 22-250Rem . . What I Learned . . .

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  • Jester896

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    A .243 has been on my list for a minute...it could be a falling block or a bolt. I have a short sporter barrel in .243.
     

    SAWMAN

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    Got my 50 (not 40) pcs of Lapua brass today. First time that I have ever bought or used it.
    Was $.83ea. but possibly here is why. - - -> It's just purdie . . AND . . the weight was 105.0grs +/-.2gr and the OAL length was 1.90 +/- .03". (All 50 tested) Every mouth was perfectly round. I got NO shaveings when I attempted to debur the flash holes. I really see no need to square the primer pockets.
    I will not make it a habbit of buying the Lapua brand of brass. But from what I have seen so far,I just might like it for this project. --- SAWMAN
     

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    Jester896

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    I finally gifted the remainder on my .308 to a hunting buddy with 150GMK. I wouldn't mind having some of the Palma cases with small primer pockets. Lapua is well finished brass. I still have 2 New boxes of .260 I will probably never use.

    Patterson Cartridge has a really good product as well and they make small primer pocket .260
     

    SAWMAN

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    What will the small primer pocket do for you except possibly a thicker case web for more pressure. Or maybe with the hotter loads,no loose primers. --- SAWMAN
     

    Jester896

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    It is my understanding from Hook and Reid's old discussions ( I only hear Reid's side) that it is a better overall ignition with the magnum primers and as well as the attributes that you mentioned. Brass lasts longer too if your not running hot.
     

    SAWMAN

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    I am a big believer in magnum primers for most everything.
    My starting load workup will have CCI250 . . . exclusively. --- SAWMAN
     

    Jester896

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    I have 10 Starline small primer (palma) samples they gave me to try in .308. I will bring them to you to try next time I pass.
     

    SAWMAN

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    That would be great sir. It would be a great test/expierament. I have a super accurate 308 heavy bbl bolt gun that I would love to try them in. Especially with some of my 1990 vintage Sierra 155gr Palma bullets.
    I will check the site but are the Starline readily available ??
    I have used a bunch of their brass in the pistol chamberings and it is some great brass. I even "pushed" the 65K thing with their 454Casull brass. --- SAWMAN
     
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    Jester896

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    I picked these up at the Rifle Expo from the Starline rep. They are their Match Grade line. I have a .700P in .308 that is in semi retirement (while it still shoots good :)). I just didn't want to go through the trouble of necking it down and neck turning it. My shooting buddy, since he is a 07Type, was able to pick up 100 from Patterson in .260 for us to try at some point.

    I still have your Lott for when I head that way...hopefully in a couple of weeks....shoot me an address to send them to in case my plans change if ya want...
     

    SAWMAN

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    DAMN !! Just when I thought that I knew it all,I came up with something that I kinda knew,but not all the way. ( Please do not tell RidgeRunner or Joel that I 'fessed up to this).
    It is the bullet stability in flight thing. NOW . . . most shooters,hunters,reloaders,do not need to worry about a bullet being spun fast enough to fly straight and true and not yaw or pitch on it's way to the paper or animal.
    But some 5.56/223,308,243,260,6.8,6.5,and others need to tale a closer look if they choose to shoot a heavier/ longer than "normal" bullet.
    The formula that I have been using is the MILLER STABILITY FACTOR. This,at JBM Calculations (Stability). Your inputs are easy,and redily available at most bullet manufacturer's web sites. You will need weight,and bullet OAL. Also velocity and if poly tip,the length . . however I have found that the latter does not make much difference. The biggie is bbl twist rate.
    As stated before the twist rate is effin MUCH more important than fwd vel. I am quickly learning this with my 22-250 1:12 bbl. I wanted to use the 62-70gr bullets but no-can-do. Even though my vels will be much faster than a 223/5.56. Also the bullets design/make-up has a lot to do with it because the less lead,the longer for weight the bullet is.
    The 1:10 twist of some of the newer guns would be great for the longer range things. And . . . with the heavier bullets comes the longer lengths which equates to a much better B.C.
    Using the Miller formula,your looking for a number between 1.3 and 2.0. A little under 1.300 is marginal and most likely a number like 1.288 would be fine.
    REMEMBER - - -> for bullet stability in flight,velocity is great . . BUT . . bbl twist rate is king. The prime example is with the 223/5.56,the 1:7 twist is king (IMHO). YOU CANNOT OVERSPIN A BULLET !!
    》》》 Now that I know it all about this subject also,any questions,just ask. --- SAWMAN
     
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    FrommerStop

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    DAMN !! Just when I thought that I knew it all,I came up with something that I kinda knew,but not all the way. ( Please do not tell RidgeRunner or Joel that I 'fessed up to this).
    It is the bullet stability in flight thing. NOW . . . most shooters,hunters,reloaders,do not need to worry about a bullet being spun fast enough to fly straight and true and not yaw or pitch on it's way to the paper or animal.
    But some 5.56/223,308,243,260,6.8,6.5,and others need to tale a closer look if they choose to shoot a heavier/ longer than "normal" bullet.
    The formula that I have been using is the MILLER STABILITY FACTOR. This,at JBM Calculations (Stability). Your inputs are easy,and redily available at most bullet manufacturer's web sites. You will need weight,and bullet OAL. Also velocity and if poly tip,the length . . however I have found that the latter does not make much difference. The biggie is bbl twist rate.
    As stated before the twist rate is effin MUCH more important than fwd vel. I am quickly learning this with my 22-250 1:12 bbl. I wanted to use the 62-70gr bullets but no-can-do. Even though my vels will be much faster than a 223/5.56. Also the bullets design/make-up has a lot to do with it because the less lead,the longer for weight the bullet is.
    The 1:10 twist of some of the newer guns would be great for the longer range things. And . . . with the heavier bullets comes the longer lengths with equates to a much better B.C.
    Using the Miller formula,your looking for a number between 1.3 and 2.0. A little under 1.300 is marginal and most likely a number like 1.288 would be fine.
    REMEMBER - - -> for bullet stability in flight,velocity is great . . BUT . . bbl twist rate is king. The prime example is with the 223/5.56,the 1:7 twist is king (IMHO). YOU CANNOT OVERSPIN A BULLET !!
    》》》 Now that I know it all about this subject also,any questions,just ask. --- SAWMAN
    Some of the thinner more frangible .224 are known to disintegrate at ultravelocities
     

    FrommerStop

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    Sierra BlitzKing .22 Caliber (.224) 55 grain (100) #1345 https://www.okweber.com/Sierra-BlitzKing-22-Caliber-224-55-grain-100-1345
    If you shoot a rifle in 222 Remington or 223 Remington, this may be the ideal varmint bullet for you. This bullet is designed for the velocity levels typical of these two popular rifle cartridges to give maximum terminal performance. It can often give accuracy rivaling even our famous MatchKings. The sleek Sierra Spitzer point shape assures downrange performance. Designed for total frangibility upon impact, this lightly jacketed bullet should be used only in "conventional" twist rate barrels (1x12" or 1x14"). Use in fast twist rate barrels can result in bullet disintegration in mid-air!


    Designed for velocities below 3600 FPS, thin-jacketed and highly explosive, this can be one of the bullets for all 22 caliber centerfire handguns chambering medium-to-large-capacity cartridges for varmint hunting applications. Offering good expansion characteristics at all normal ranges with traditional Sierra match grade accuracy, this bullet may be an excellent choice for all but the smallest of the 22 centerfire cartridges. The Sierra Spitzer shape results in a high ballistic coefficient for flat trajectory, high energy retention downrange, and low sensitivity to crosswinds and vertical winds. The enhanced expansion characteristics on small animals make the Blitz the choice of knowledgeable handgunners the world ove
     

    SAWMAN

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    Yep,your right. If you have a 220Swift,with 28 inches of bbl,shooting a "designed for varmints" 35 gr at 4400 from a 1:10 bbl,yep it just might go "POOF".
    Or a 5.56 with a 28 inch bbl,shooting a 35gr "designed for varmints" at 3650,from a 1:7 twist bbl,that could do it, . . . . . BUT . . . . . ???
    IMO you would have to try really hard to accomplish a "POOF". I shot a 220Swift for years. Using both a Sierra 52gr BTHP and a Nosler 40gr BalTip. Never saw it unless I hit something on the way to the target. --- SAWMAN
     

    SAWMAN

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    With due respect,the link that you posted (post # 53) is simply not true.
    As stated above,a person would actually have to try hard to accomplish this. You would have to deliberately stray from all levels of common sense.
    SHOW ME . . . I would love to see this. Look what the link is saying. A 222 or a 223 with a 1:11 twist will explode these bullets ?? --- SAWMAN
     

    FrommerStop

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    With due respect,the link that you posted (post # 53) is simply not true.
    As stated above,a person would actually have to try hard to accomplish this. You would have to deliberately stray from all levels of common sense.
    SHOW ME . . . I would love to see this. Look what the link is saying. A 222 or a 223 with a 1:11 twist will explode these bullets ?? --- SAWMAN
    Years ago was reloading maybe hornady bullets in my 22-250 and there was that warning. I never exploded any bullets either. But, I guess that not all barrels relative to rifling engraving are the same here. I would be more concerned with some minor bulging that might impact grouping. But, it you have done it and all is good there is not much more to say.
     

    Jester896

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    Some of the thinner more frangible .224 are known to disintegrate at ultravelocities


    there is some info on that in Chuck Hawk's articles on the .22-250...think it is light bullets moving really fast.

    I have had one of my friends tell me he has had bullets disappear in his. His twist rate allows him to shoot 90s I think. I would think that a 1:12 might have a limit of 60gr longer bullets but not much more. Also running FB instead of BT may help with twist rates. Velocity could overcome small amounts but not as a replacement for twist rate....even though the slower rate might have slightly more velocity.
     

    wildrider666

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    Poof happens! Lol. I've never experienced one but curiosity and an abundance of free time allow some research. Poof: "Disintegrating bullets" phenomena is factual IMHO, too may reported events to discard as a myth. My theory: There are several factors that contribute to it but the main cause is THIN jackets or thin plating, heat sync from several sources: hot chamber/barrel, fast twist rate friction, Higher MV create additional friction heat. Cartridge "cookoff" testing also confirmed that pre ignition temperatures caused a thermal decomposition reaction (reaction raises powder temp above barrel temp!) in the propellant which at its chemical limits "detonates". We know from other KaBooms the higher pressures caused by detonation as opposed to normal rear to front ignition. The thermal decomposition reaction could be growing but interrupted by a primer strike ignition and still cause much higher pressures and resulting muzzle velocity extremes. This does not provide a smooth standard ignition "push" with increasing pressure as burn continues. Think of it as a hammer blow that will initially bypass rifling until friction starts twisting but jacket material has already been degraded. We know lead bullets fired with too much velocity will "smudge" or strip lead. We also encounter copper fouling (from jacket material). It's no a leap to think thin jacket material at extreme velocities could be stripped/damaged further weaken the projectiles structural integrity and with imparted spin: fail. I think these conditions are a perfect storm for the occurence of disintegrating bullets: Poof.

    Some opinion that heat transfer from multiple sources/forces (just powder 3200°F) exceeds the melting point of the lead core (621°) causes expansion of the core material against thin jacket material which has also been compromised by the bore lans and grooves: centrifical forces then tear apart the weaken structure.

    There are often variable results documented in Series to the Poof(s) and target hits. As with bullet ballistics variables between individual projectiles, case capacity, primers and powder charges and "temperature hot guns" is enough to cause the Poof/hit inconsistency.

    "On the other hand, excessive twist rates can affect accuracy, accelerate wear and even rip jackets apart and cause projectiles to disintegrate."
    So says the Linked article:

    https://www.ballisticmag.com/2015/05/01/rifling-101-understanding-twist-rate-basics/
     
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    FrommerStop

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    Cartridge "cookoff" testing also confirmed that pre ignition temperatures caused a thermal decomposition reaction in the propellant which at its chemical limits "detonates". We know from other KaBooms the higher pressures caused by detonation as opposed to normal rear to front ignition. The thermal decomposition reaction could be growing but interrupted by a primer strike ignition and still cause much higher pressures and resulting muzzle velocity extremes
    That is interesting. In military rounds like 30-06. 308, 5.56 and others that are fired in semi auto or even closed bolt machineguns one would expect to hear of more KaBooms. But I would not discount this out of hand. There are some seemingly unexplained kabooms with handloads. I could certainly see a hot chamber resulting in greater velocity. Cook offs normally do not blow up a gun, assuming that the barrel is not yet cherry red and lost its strength.
     

    SAWMAN

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    WR, in your above link it does not say under what "normal" hunting,target,or even plinking at a dirt pit,conditions the "poof" happens. What gun,what action,bbl condition (rough with tool marks),fwd velocity,rotational velocity,bullet makeup/design,etc. that a shooter could expect to poof a bullet after having departed the bbl,and not having hit ANYTHING on the way to the target.
    I would suspect that the bullet comes apart AFTER it has left the bbl. This would,at least to a great degree,be due to centrifugal force. I have seen bullets spun at close to a half million revs and hold together. No . . not a .224" 35gr that is designed for a 22Hornet.
    I personally have shot a M60 for a duration that is long enough,that the bbl is cherry red and semi transparent. This,when the bbl is subjected to 80-100 mph wind. Also salt spray and a 25knot wind. I have seen a long bbl M2 50BMG treated the same and fire fine.
    I stand by my post #54 & 55. I feel that to "poof" a bullet the shooter would have to intentionally put together/combine the things that would cause this to happen.
    Has it happened in the past ?? . . YES . . but it was most likely due to the shooter had suffered a "POOF" of the brain somewhere in his past.
    The above are just one mans opinion. --- SAWMAN
     
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