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At what point does the ATF...

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  • John B.

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    Something I've been pondering for a while and have always been curious of the answer.... At what point does the ATF consider sales of firearms to be of a business purpose?

    What I mean is, how many private sales can an individual have before they are considered a business, thus requiring n FFL?

    I, as well as many of the rest of you look at several different Forums and venues for firearms. GCGF, PFF, Gunbroker, Facebook and the like.... and I can't help but notice a few folks who are always quick to jump on that $350 glock (as I would be too) but then a week or so later, it's up for sale for $550...

    I'm all for not losing money, I've came up on the plus side a few times for sure.

    But is there a magic number of transactions a person can make before they are considered to be breaking a law?

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    RevSteve

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    Armslist is the worse man. I see good deals on there and I’m happy to know people can get good deals but then an hour later the good deal is gone and being sold at regular price. Can’t we just let there be good deals without being selfish?
     

    stage20

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    From what I was told by a friend who knows an atf agent is one firearm. If you buy with the intent of profit you need an FFL. Granted if you have 900 guns from an estate it's legal to sell. Personally I buy and play with them for a while and either trade or sell what I have in it. I know a lot of guys buy and sell. Don't know how they prove it but they are the atf. Could take you down at any moment lol
     

    FrommerStop

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    It think it is up the ATF agents. The ATF does not lack for work that they need to pursue. Usually they stay away from the hobbyist. But this is a judgement call on their part. I eventually will be selling some guns since I have been buying them for years and need to get rid of some. I will likely sell them to club members. If I have owned guns for 40-50 yrs and then decide to sell say 5 or 10 guns in a reasonably discrete manner I should be ok. If just bought 10 guns in the last month to turn around and sell them at a huge profit that could be seen as being in the business.
     

    John B.

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    on the ban thing but as for sales I think we can agree mine don't sell, you actually have to sell them for that to count...lol
    Touché lol.... I haven't sold one in quite a while.

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    FLT

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    If you have to make a profit to be considered as being in business , then I have nothing to worry about .
     

    SAWMAN

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    Shit Frank . . . If they gotta prove "intent" they damn sure couldn't come after you or me. --- SAWMAN
     

    Big Shrek

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    Something I've been pondering for a while and have always been curious of the answer.... At what point does the ATF consider sales of firearms to be of a business purpose?

    What I mean is, how many private sales can an individual have before they are considered a business, thus requiring n FFL?

    I, as well as many of the rest of you look at several different Forums and venues for firearms. GCGF, PFF, Gunbroker, Facebook and the like.... and I can't help but notice a few folks who are always quick to jump on that $350 glock (as I would be too) but then a week or so later, it's up for sale for $550...

    I'm all for not losing money, I've came up on the plus side a few times for sure.

    But is there a magic number of transactions a person can make before they are considered to be breaking a law?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

    That one's kind of up to the agent that gets the case...
    usually it takes a complaint first...or an investigation that accidently
    runs across Seller X while investigating something else...
    then they eyeball Seller X and see if he's doing more than say,
    one Firearm a month would be my GUESS...
    anything more than that would certainly ring my Suspicious Bell.
    But I'm retired as felgercarb, so my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it ;)

    Heck, even if I was On The Job, last thing I'd be worried about is gun sales,
    as long as the folks involved are doing their due dilligence
    so that bad guys ain't getting none.
    Of course, you sell one to a mass shooter, they're gonna peel your life apart
    and have fun doing it...they will FIND things to charge you with.
    Mopery with Intent, for starters...then probably keeping bleach too close to the ammonia... ;)

    So, it's like any other hobby, except the BATF AND the IRS watch you,
    instead of just the Tax Man. (Sell a Babe Ruth card once and see if they don't peg ya for taxes).
     

    FNHman

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    I think the bigger picture is all about greasing the government wheels, they want their money.

    You sell 50 glocks and make $50 on each. You cleared $2500 and not reported for taxes = government pissed!!! so punishment is blamed on some BS rule about not having an FFL and ATF steps in and your screwed.

    You sell 2 of your grandpas mint rare pythons for $7500 each that you got for nothing and your ok. $15,000 cleared no taxes paid. government PISSED! but not illegal..... so new rules will be made to keep the working class down and the businesses in profit and taxes paid. solution=, they want to make all sells go through an FFL. Step 2, track and make sure your paying your taxes on any gun you will sell in the future. money flows to government, government happy.
     

    wildrider666

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    Here is what ATF put out, it's a PDF file.

    https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/dow...BClkQFggNMAA&usg=AOvVaw3tuLnnk81ph4DCpQV8DaPw

    Non Lawyer Disclaimer: I'm not one. Lol
    ATF is not going to eliminate al the variables a they may need to support prosecutions from various angles, lots of gray in this.
    Buy them for you own use is fine. Get tired of it, sell it or sell parts of a collection (several guns). If you preference changes from Springfields to Glocks or from 9mm to 40S&W you may sell a bunch but you can articulate the reason. You can sell and make profit (Gov can't force you to sell at break even or at a loss with the exception of "Emanate domain"). If there is a Sellers Market brought on by potential or pending Ban you can sell your "collection" of AR/AK for a nice profit.

    The problems come from business like practices and actions and these can be in reference to one or two transactions ATF says. Quantity of buy & sell or resell transactions. Time between your purchase and offer for resale/sale, profit(s) as primary income source or contributing % (how much), numbers of firearms you poses compared to the number you have for sale compared to number sold. Hard to justify buying and selling the same Glock models over and over. If the answer is "I don't have one but I'll see if I can get one." He is dealing, and that's all it takes!
     
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