Target Sports

Need AR advice on a SHTF / SD rifle

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Gulf Coast States

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • boatbum101

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Joined
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages
    683
    Points
    63
    Location
    Gulf Breeze , FL
    My first inclination is to buy one from a reputable company that has experience building serious rifles for social encounters . Range toys & hunting rifles are a totally different kettle of fish & if they choke it might be aggravating but not fatal . There's been so many inovations on the AR platform since my experience with them I'm kinda of lost ( left Uncle Sam's Daycamp in 1973 ) . M16A1 was the issue weapon then .
    I've been told that Daniels Defense , LMT , LWRCI , Larue , Noveske , BCM , Ranier , KAC , POF , SIG , HK , FN & Colt all make excellent rifles .
    Features I've been told to look for are a Stainless barrel , M4 feed ramp , full auto BCG high pressure tested & mag particle inspected with staked gas key , free floated handguard .
    I'm wondering about what twist & chamber type to get & am not familar with Wylde chambering advantages if any . While price is always a consideration it's not the main one . What I do want is a solid dependable rifle that you can bet the farm on .
    Sights , optics , barrel length , gas system type ie DI or piston etc . Any reccomendations & advice would be gratefully accepted , especially from vets with more recent combat experience than mine .
     
    Last edited:

    Pudge

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 4, 2018
    Messages
    115
    Points
    28
    Location
    Crestview
    I'll first address manufacturers. I don't think that you can go wrong with any of the brands that you have listed. I personally am a big fan of Daniel Defense and BCM. These two brands along with Colt and even FN see a lot of heavy duty use from those currently in combat. Depending on exactly what you want to have on this rifle don't be afraid to piece together your own with pieces from these same manufacturers. My personal go to gun for extreme situations is actually a 14.5" Liberty Hill Tactical rifle from FMJ Armory in Lagrange, GA that I had put together by them after hand selecting every piece for extreme reliability, durability, and accuracy in that order. Like you, I wanted something that I could stake my life on. I know accuracy is last in my top three but the rifle is still probably more accurate than I am. It easily hits silhouettes out to 400 meters (farthest I've been able to shoot it). I shoot a lot and do not always use the highest quality ammo (ie: steel case) which is why I used and may have slightly different recommendations than some.

    I would agree on m4 feed ramp, full auto BCG that is MPI tested with staked gas key, and free floated handguard (lots of options here: keymod, picatinny, m-lok). For barrel I recommend chrome lined due to its durability and ease of maintenance. Probably not as accurate as a stainless steel but I want durability for SHTF. By not as accurate very few shooters will be able to capitalize on the difference. It will last longer and does not require as much to maintain. I went with a 1:7" twist which has seemed to be very good for everything I shoot (55gr-77gr). It is also what is on my both of my work guns and seems to work decent with every type of ammo you can imagine the Army handing you. A lot of people from my understanding are starting to go to 1:8" twist as a do all and have had lots of success. I do not have any experience with these though so cannot comment on that. I would go with a chambering in 5.56 since that allows you to shoot both .223 and 5.56 with no issues. I prefer a carbine length direct impingent gas system on my 14.5". I know most manufacturers and most building their own rifles prefer mid-length gas systems on this length due to slightly less recoil impulse but again, I wanted to make sure that my rifle would reliably feed whatever I put in it's diet to include steel case because you never know what ammo you'll have on hand. Having a little more oomph guarantees that I'm not going to have to worry about a stuck case. As far as barrel length goes I've extensively used 14.5" (pinned so you don't have to worry about NFA stuff) and 10.5" both as personal guns and as my work guns. I really like the slightly more compact 10.5" but find myself using my 14.5" for about everything. In a house and vehicle the 10.5" is a little more maneuverable but not so much that you become John Wick. Also, the shorter you go with the barrel the louder and more concussion you are going to have to deal with. Something to keep in mind. I run flash hiders; silencerco asr on my personal guns and aac flash hiders on my work guns. I prefer a flash hider due to in low light they do a great job at keeping your position hidden and in an enclosed space a muzzle brake will definitely clear the sinuses along with let everyone see where you are in low light.

    As far as optics recommendations it all depends on what you like/distances you mostly plan to use it for. I am a big fan of Eotech, use a 512 because I prefer AA batteries, and holosun red dots for 0-300m. There are however some very good variable optics from Vortex that can't be beat. 1-6 and 1-8 power. Almost as fast as a red dot up close but can extend your practical range a little. Some of the currently deployed guys are using variable power Vortex scopes and love them. I would also recommend some kind flip-up iron sights and a good flashlight.

    I know that some will agree and some will disagree with these recommendations but these are what I use and stand by. I can't recommend what I haven't used and I will only recommend what I believe in otherwise I wouldn't be using it, but that doesn't mean there are not possibly better/other solutions. I hope this helps and doesn't make the waters muddier. Good luck and enjoy the search for the right rifle.
     

    SAWMAN

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Joined
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages
    13,937
    Points
    113
    Location
    Cantonment,Fla.
    Only goin' one place and it might be the most disagreeable place.
    You mentioned some pretty high end guns. Some $1800 - $2300. I really do not believe that for your purposes (granted,saving your life and the lives of your family members) you need a gun of that high "endiness".
    It is like wanting a carry 45ACP and will only buy an STI or other $2300 guns. Not needed.
    Instead,buy a good quality $800. gun and add ONLY the extras that you need . . . not want or think it will make the gun look kewl.
    Put the saved money into decent mags,training/gun break in ammo,quality scope/sight (you don't need to go crazy there either). Schmidt & Bender or other $1600+++ scopes not needed.
    Set some of that saved money aside. As you train/shoot you will find some things that you need to add on or buy to support the gun. Travel case,scope covers,quality rings,mag pouches,etc,etc.
    Remember, IMO the weakest part of a accurate (<3MOA) AR is its trigger. Plan on >$100 for that alone.
    Ammo - - >Most any for practice. For the real deal use M855 green tip. Your AR should have a 1:7 or 8 twist. I have seen some shorter bbl'ed guns not stabilize the 855's with a 9 twist bbl.
    Bottom line - - -> You really do not need the most expensive to have a great quality super reliable firearm.
    No gas piston gun or surpressor needed. You might want a good light that you can attach to the gun . . . when needed. ---- SAWMAN
     
    Last edited:

    boatbum101

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Joined
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages
    683
    Points
    63
    Location
    Gulf Breeze , FL
    All good points been made in above posts . Don't give a flying f*&& about " kewl" . Yes when I looked at mfgers I mentioned in my opening posts I about fouled my trousers . Granted I don't need a $2000 gun for my intended purpose . Have also decided no stainless barrel . I do want an M4 carbine configuration , chrome lined barrel with 1 in 7 twist , full auto bolt carrier ( HPT & MPI'd ) , staked gas key , direct impingement gas system , no Wylde chamber, gas piston stuff or suppressor . Handguards , sights , optics still undecided . I'd put high end glass on a hunting rifle but not an AR . Probably get an upper built to spec & stripped lower with parts I want to complete it . We'll see .
     

    SAWMAN

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Joined
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages
    13,937
    Points
    113
    Location
    Cantonment,Fla.
    Keep checking with PSA. There are uppers and lowers that I feel would serve your purposes and allow you to put the saved money towards other things for the gun.
    Obviously dependability is the main thing. Closely followed by accuracy. BUT . . . accuracy inside of 300yds.
    Maybe think about picking up some small spare parts also. --- SAWMAN
    ADDED INFO: Put up a 10" white paper pie plate. Add a small orange aiming dot if you want. Start moving back from it until you cannot put 4 out of 5 shots in it. What is the range ?? If it is 300yds your doing great.
    You should be able to do this with a 1 or 2MOA dot or a 1-4 or 2-7 powered scope.
    Can you do this prone with a bipod or gun resting on a backpack ??
    Using M855 or M193 ammo,zero your gun at 50yds. Hold top of plate from 200 to 300yds.
     
    Last edited:

    ksenter

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 27, 2012
    Messages
    2,476
    Points
    63
    Location
    Milton, FL
    all excellent information. I have nothing to add. I currently have 7 AR's and everything you need to know has been covered.
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,897
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    I am still new to ARs, but have gotten interested in the arm brace pistol length ARs in 300 blackout. I do not own any of these yet, but I would like to hear the experiences of others with these guns. They are light, they hit hard, I understand that hits at 100 more yards is possible, and they use the same magazines as the 5.56. In a prolonged SHTF I assume that ARs have already been officially banned and lighter somewhat concealable weapons would be at a premium.

    Shots at hundreds yards are not as important as closer ranges would be. Right now I have a MAK90 AK with a folding stock that fits nicely in a tennis bag; I think a pistol brace on an AR pistol would be superior to the AK platform for such purposes.
     

    wildrider666

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages
    8,753
    Points
    113
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Fl
    Food for thought: The M16 was adopted with a 20 in barrel to provide the velocity needed to make the light 55 grain projectile fast enough to take care of business. Its killing potential has been somewhat neutered in the military with shorter barrels and heavier projectiles traveling at lower velocities and greated drop over distance. Now we have collapsible stocks for length of pull with body armor but its actually about eyefelief IMHO. but barrel length increases only go to Unit/Squad designated marksman rifles!

    Direct gas impingement is a self defeating fouling system also providing heat to destroy lubrication, then add environmental factors on top of that. The fouling also flows into the magazines. No adjustment for continued use when fouling makes things sluggish? Yeah you can clean them for hours when in the rear with the gear but were talking about #1 Reliability and since its a SHTF environment do you have the time and security to do it? Your worst case scenario should be that you won't have time for that high maintenance crap. That's why I'm gas piston over DGI. You can go cheap with SKS, mid level $1K for a AK or a little bit more for a Sig. There are higher priced AR hybrid piston (bolt not mechanically connected to piston rod) or other actual gas pistion guns in several calibers. Most gas piston guns also have folding stocks AND can be fired while folded! The main Plus for the 5.56/223 is its ammo commonality just about everywhere in the U.S.

    It shoud be SHTF gunS, come on, you need a backup if your really preparing. A common parts kit is also a must, you gotta keep it running for the long haul. If you good or lucky, there will always be battlefield pickups of guns and ammo. A high speed low drag 5.7 might quickly starve if things get real busy.

    My choice and recommend is the Sig 556 in 5.56 (not the 7.62×39). It has the same controls in the same positions as an AR 15 except no charging handle, the bolt handle doubles as the FWD Assist if needed and it takes AR Mags. I'm layered with several different setups but all of them have additional offset flip up sights and sighted in with 62grain JHP.
    P556 SWAT with Dot is the Truck gun. (No brace)
    R556 Classic 2×7 Redfield Accutrack BDC
    R556 Classic Sig Echo Thermal Reflex QD mount so I can pull it to go with another gun.
    R556 SWATPatrol EOTech Reflex Dot QD mount.
    R522TT 22LR Trainer same exact controls as the big boys, cheaper operation.

    The Sig piston guns are a little heavier then a AR15, thats the price I gladly pay for reliability. Still lighter then the M14 I humpped. I still pack more then 7 mag combat load too. There are a few Sig rifle guys lurking around the Forum, probably more AK loyalists here. I didn't need to buy a special this and add a better that. I bought a basic 556 Classic and it sold me on the rest! Eats everything and puts the holes where I want them. Punch the bore, lube and your done! Things get sluggish (hasn't happend yet): turn the gas system to position #2 (larger gas port) and keep shooting, clean it later! Brown Bear/mil classic 62 grain HP shoots under 2MOA: good enough for cheap stockpile but I keep good stuff in quantity too.

    My choice really only matters to my family and I. I'm sure the AR/DGI folks feel the same way. I transition to the M16 and got a lot of trigger time on them too but non of them run like the Sig IMHO.

    Are spendy rifles worth it? What if I told you a guy that was meticulously in his preperation, set up mid and high dollar ARs then started doing mag dumps. How would you think the mid priced compared to the high dollar? This guy was the Vegas Shooter. The Report contains firearms by type serial numbe, optic and the presents of a BFS. It then lists the number of fired cartridge casings recovered (inside and out) and matched each one to a firearm giving totals each firearm. They don't provide functional status like jammed, empty or round chambered. We also don't know the exact reason he switched firearms we do know that some fired many more than others. Some without optics were not fired at all. I haven't found my Notes on this since the Hurrican shuffle. I might have to redue it if nobody else did it.
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,897
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    It is true that the gas system of the AR plateform does blow gas into the system. It actually blows into bolt carrier and is not truly a direct gas impingement, but gas does blow through the system and so in nicer language it defecates where it eats.
    AR-DI-vs-Piston-Operation-10.jpg
    I have watched more than one video of people firing AR15 with FA lowers and on continuous full auto; they will go through way more than 500 rounds prior to a stoppage. Usually what puts them out of action is barrel failure. No way is it likely I will be going through 500 rounds in a semiauto rifle in one go. Is it really that hard to find down time to clean your rifle. ARs are not that hard to clean. For carry in our conditions in the south simply keeping the dust cover and mag in place make the AR quite proof from the elements. The piston guns are really a solution for a problem that does not exist. Life is full of choices and if this is what you want then go for, this is still for the moment america.
    Part of my mission is not get in a high up perch with a bump stock and fire hundreds of rounds. If you want reliable full auto, you need an autosear and the other FA parts. There are no lessons from nut case in las vegas that concern me.

    For reliability there are some things that I do not like about most ARs that are not fixed by a piston. The 7 lug bolt does not have the camming power of say a MI garand where I can place the gun on the ground and kick the action open.
     

    Attachments

    • AR-DI-vs-Piston-Operation-10.jpg
      AR-DI-vs-Piston-Operation-10.jpg
      98.3 KB · Views: 175
    Last edited:
    Rating - 100%
    50   0   0
    Joined
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages
    3,935
    Points
    113
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    The way I see it and explain to others is that the DI system has been around for 60 years. It is simple and it works. As FrommerStop said, ARs are not that hard to clean. I have been cleaning M16s/AR-15s for over 40 years. It is no big deal. I do have three SIG rifles (516, 556, and MCX) that I enjoy, but they are not my "go-to" or SHTF weapon. I have a good ole tried and true AR-15 carbine. It works and is dependable. If something breaks, I do not have to worry about proprietary parts. Parts are immediately available from most any vendor. There is a distinct advantage to the DI system.
     

    FrommerStop

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Joined
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages
    6,897
    Points
    113
    Location
    NWFL
    On the parts issue, it is likely a good idea to carry a spare bolt since firing pins, bolt lugs, and extractors do occasionally break on high round count guns. I am building up a stock of spare parts for my glocks and ARs and also some other rifles like the AK.
    Bolt breakage is likely worse in AR15s set up for other cartridges like the AK 7.62x39 cartridge where so much of bolt face is removed for the large AK round case head.
     
    Last edited:

    boatbum101

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Joined
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages
    683
    Points
    63
    Location
    Gulf Breeze , FL
    Ran up on a deal I couldn't say no too . Daniels Defense factory upper on a LMT Defender 2000 factory lower , Troy Full float handguard with battle rail , MBUS sights , Magpul kitted out , Surefire light , forend grip , Primary Arms reddot , 16" 1in 7 twist barrel for $900 . Hope it shoots as good as it looks .
     
    Rating - 100%
    50   0   0
    Joined
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages
    3,935
    Points
    113
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    Ran up on a deal I couldn't say no too . Daniels Defense factory upper on a LMT Defender 2000 factory lower , Troy Full float handguard with battle rail , MBUS sights , Magpul kitted out , Surefire light , forend grip , Primary Arms reddot , 16" 1in 7 twist barrel for $900 . Hope it shoots as good as it looks .

    Looking forward to seeing it. :smile:
     
    Top Bottom