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Army and Marines rethinking the 6.8 round...

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  • Crazydoc68

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    I dont know of any armor penetrating rounds yet. Im sure they will have one in the works. We are going back training as if we were going to fight a war where we dont have air superiority.

    Im currently in a few medic classes here and they are retraining us on possibly having to take care of a patient for 2-4 days before we could evac them.

    All the 6.8spc rds cannot penetrate ceramic plates. Speed is what kills armor. Unless they plan on having a 95gr projectile leaving the barrel at 3500fps, thats not gonna happen. Not trying to shit on this thread. Just my observatiins.
     

    FrommerStop

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    I dont know of any armor penetrating rounds yet. Im sure they will have one in the works. We are going back training as if we were going to fight a war where we dont have air superiority.

    Im currently in a few medic classes here and they are retraining us on possibly having to take care of a patient for 2-4 days before we could evac them.

    All the 6.8spc rds cannot penetrate ceramic plates. Speed is what kills armor. Unless they plan on having a 95gr projectile leaving the barrel at 3500fps, thats not gonna happen. Not trying to shit on this thread. Just my observatiins.
    You likely also want core of steel or tungsten. I have not actually seen tests of bullets designed to defeat ceramic plates. I assume any 50 BMG projectile will do it.
     

    SAWMAN

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    Why does everybody keep talking about the 6.8SPC.
    Sorry . . . I'm just not as informed as youz guyz. Tell the Army to feel free to contact me. I will rent them my Vol 1 and Vol 2 of the books written 50 years ago by P.O. Ackley. (signed edition)
    Back then he was doing tests for the Army. He found that a 20gr brass or bronze bullet coming out of a 220Swift case at >5000fps would penetrate a good thickness of armor,and ALL body armor. --- SAWMAN
     
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    FrommerStop

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    Why does everybody keep talking about the 6.8SPC.
    Sorry . . . I'm just not as informed as youz guyz. Tell the Army to feel free to contact me. I will rent them my Vol 1 and Vol 2 of the books written 50 years ago by P.O. Ackley. (signed edition)
    Back then he was doing tests for the Army. He found that a 20gr brass or bronze bullet coming out of a 220Swift case at >5000fps would penetrate a good thickness of armor,and ALL body armor. --- SAWMAN

    Interesting information. But did they 50 yrs ago have ceramic plates to test it against?
     

    SAWMAN

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    No ceramic plates back then but if the bullet had a longish ojive and was somewhat pointy for the diameter and weight,i'm thinking that it would zip right through ceramic. --- SAWMAN
     

    FrommerStop

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    No ceramic plates back then but if the bullet had a longish ojive and was somewhat pointy for the diameter and weight,i'm thinking that it would zip right through ceramic. --- SAWMAN
    The Point is especially important for fabric for wedging between the weave in soft body armor. I think you said 20 grains of something which is softer than ceramic or armor plate.
    But there is that velocity of 5,000 fps which is wow, that is moving. Likely not a very practical cartridge, but still I would like to see something like that fired at ceramic plates.
     

    wildrider666

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    More often than not, wars tend to be drawn out affairs, 5000fps could be a bit of a barrel burner. Lol. I think the 223WSSM
    Does 4700fps. Its a fatty case so you would loose a lot of mag capacity compaired to a 5.56 and pick up more weight and bulk for a std cbt load.

    Thats not to say some mad chemist with a flair for ballistics couldn't make some magic "cold" propellant that worked in a much smaller case than the current 5.56, and push 5K+ fps. Let's get them to shrink that Navy electromagnetic rail gun down to Grunt user friendly size! Your smart phone has more computing power than the entire NASA system had while sending folks to the moon! Its just money and priorities.
     

    SAWMAN

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    As far as the armor penetrating thing goes . . . talking caliber (.000") . . . I do not believe that I have ever heard anyone state what would be best for armor.
    I am sure the it would have alot to do with: 1. sectional density (SD) 2. Weight of projectile 3. Velocity of projectile 4. Meplate and ogive of projectile. 5. Makeup of projectile (lead,copper,steel,tungsten carbide,other).
    All this worked out by someone alot smarter than me would come up with . . ?? . . something.
    Then,a whole new set of questions would arise. Cost of transition,training cost,tool up cost,distrabution cost,parts cost,etc,etc,would just be a few more questions.
    IMO the M855 62gr is pretty good at penetrating already. What would the results be if you went up or down in the bullets weight. Saaaay . . . 75 or 55gr ??? The 75 would give you the momentum thing. The 55 would give you the velocity thing.
    Just some thoughts. --- SAWMAN
     

    MauserLarry

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    "I am sure the it would have alot to do with: 1. sectional density (SD) 2. Weight of projectile 3. Velocity of projectile 4. Meplate and ogive of projectile. 5. Makeup of projectile (lead,copper,steel,tungsten carbide,other)."

    This is dead on. I fired quite a few APDS (armor piercing discarding sabot) from a tank and all of the above points were addressed in the design of the projectile. I fired the old tungsten carbide rounds and I'm sure the spent uranium rounds are even better.
     

    wildrider666

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    Lead weighs 11.342 gram per cubic centimeter. Uranium weighs 19.05 gram per cubic centimeter (I don't think depleted uranium weighs less). I would think you could balance the weights between a depleted uranium core and copper FMJ to produce a standard size/weight 55 grain bullet and keep current inventory of 5.56 arms. Problem solved. Gov could re barrel "back" to 20 inches for additional velocity. Gov needs to make it a HP too and let that jacket expand in soft targets. Before it starts: tere is no Geneva Convection Article applicable to the U.S. against military HP use!

    Copper weighs*8.95 gram*per cubic centimeter. They could stay within the 55 grain weight and use more copper and less depleted uranium to stretch the bullets profile for better sectional density as long as terminal balistic performance is maintained.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Lead weighs 11.342 gram per cubic centimeter. Uranium weighs 19.05 gram per cubic centimeter (I don't think depleted uranium weighs less). I would think you could balance the weights between a depleted uranium core and copper FMJ to produce a standard size/weight 55 grain bullet and keep current inventory of 5.56 arms. Problem solved. Gov could re barrel "back" to 20 inches for additional velocity. Gov needs to make it a HP too and let that jacket expand in soft targets. Before it starts: tere is no Geneva Convection Article applicable to the U.S. against military HP use!

    Copper weighs*8.95 gram*per cubic centimeter. They could stay within the 55 grain weight and use more copper and less depleted uranium to stretch the bullets profile for better sectional density as long as terminal balistic performance is maintained.
    These days, especially for small arms depleted uranium is no no. But the 5.56 projectiles have been made with depleted uranium cores. Really made some clean up issues harder to solve in some places.
     

    SAWMAN

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    For me/For my usage . . . sectional density is all about penetration. It has nothing to do with bullet makeup or velocity. It is simply weight compaired to diameter.
    I look at it along with ballistic coefficient (and others) to help pick the proper (for me) hunting bullet.
    It would however be a big factor in a bullet blowing through armor. Both hard and soft. --- SAWMAN
     

    wildrider666

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    What they didn't tell you during Sand Box Briefings. Of course there are vastly different research conclusions and opinions.

    "While depleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium, it still retains all the chemical toxicity associated with the original element."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819790/
     

    MarkS

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    What they didn't tell you during Sand Box Briefings. Of course there are vastly different research conclusions and opinions.

    "While depleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium, it still retains all the chemical toxicity associated with the original element."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819790/

    I knew someone who had to wear a radiation suit while using a Geiger counter to find “depleted uranium” on a military reservation. I don’t know how it got to where it was.

    I’m pretty sure that he wasn’t supposed to tell what he did at work


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    FrommerStop

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    Personally . . . I have never heard of any depleted uranium rds except for tanks and the 50BMG. --- SAWMAN
    When I was involved in DOD base clean up I did read in list of depleted uranium DoD for USA sites it said at least one instance of some in 5.56 bullets and read claims of it elsewhere. These never to my knowledge were used in war. In an antitank projectile the depleted uranium does also burn as it penetrates. I do not know if it does the same when it is really not more than a sliver or insert in a 5.56 projectile. Depleted Uranium is also used in armor.

    Armor plate
    Because of its high density, depleted uranium can also be used in tank armor, sandwiched between sheets of steel armor plate. For instance, some late-production M1A1HA and M1A2 Abrams tanks built after 1998 have DU modules integrated into their Chobham armor, as part of the armor plating in the front of the hull and the front of the turret, and there is a program to upgrade the rest.
    Depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening[35] and flammable.[31] On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp.[35] The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to ignite.[31] When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle, it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew and possibly causing the vehicle to explode. DU is used by the U.S. Army in 120 mm or 105 mm cannons employed on the M1 Abrams tank. The Russian military has used DU ammunition in tank main gun ammunition since the late 1970s, mostly for the 115 mm guns in the T-62 tank and the 125 mm guns in the T-64, T-72, T-80, and T-90 tanks.


    duk6y19ulaaz.jpg

    QUOTE]From Cartridge Collectors‘ NATODave:

    The feasibility of a 7.62mm DU flechette cartridge was explored by the Air Force Armament Laboratory in the late 60’s. The final version consisted of a 28.5gr DU flechette with a lightweight plastic sabot loaded into a standard 7.62x51mm case. Velocities in excess of 4000fps were achieved. Interestingly, concerns were expressed about in-flight ignition due to aerodynamic heating although this did not appear to be a real world problem. The details can be found in AFATL-TR-69-53 dated April 1969.[/QUOTE] https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2...anium-7-62-nato-rounds-obscure-object-desire/
     

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