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AR Pistol.. what would you do??

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  • FrankT

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    X39 is much better than the 300WTF and lots of cheaper ammo. 6.8 if you are going to hunt, if you want a LONG barrel the 6.5 grendel but by then just go 308 for better performance
     

    wildrider666

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    Expounding on Lil Jacks correct #12. Use a Pistol or virgin (never mounted to or designated as a long gun receiver) lower. Virgin (undesignated) lowers must always be built into pistol form first if you want the later option to convert it to a long gun. If the virgin lower is made into a long gun first, by law its a rifle receiver/lower: you would have to go the NFA route as any rifle modified to below 26 inches is a SBR. If you put a shoulder stock on it: make sure the OAL is at least 26 inches and the barrel (less removable muzzle device) is at least 16 inches or you fall into the NFA/SBR Regs.

    People must also comply with the 21YO age requirement for handguns in States that still have 18/21 age requirements.
     
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    Telum Pisces

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    If you had a virgin receiver built as a pistol first or a "pistol" lower you could put on a 16" upper then go back. But if you bought it as a "rifle", you can't go back without the nfa paperwork. I recommend all my customers build their lowers as "pistols" first.

    The above assumes you don't build a NFA configuration during the process, without appropriate paperwork.

    ETA:. NOT A LAWYER

    Nate,

    Just asking the "not a lawyer" a question. All the lowers I had transferred through you and called in as "other" means that it can be a pistol or rifle of my choosing at any time?
     

    stage20

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    Nate,

    Just asking the "not a lawyer" a question. All the lowers I had transferred through you and called in as "other" means that it can be a pistol or rifle of my choosing at any time?
    I've been told if you buy a stripped lower it can be a pistol. I have several that were purchased bare and built into rifles but all the lowers started stripped. How do I go about running the serial numbers to find out?
     

    War-Buff

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    Help, please. Maybe I'm just slow, but I find this "build AR lowers as pistols first" advice confusing, and I'd like to understand better. OK. so, a stripped lower transferred as "other" and built as a pistol can later be converted to a rifle (not a SBR) but not vice versa? So, the logic is that building first as a pistol gives you the flexibility to switch back & forth?

    OK. I have purchased stripped lowers that my dealer transferred as "other." I have built rifles but never a pistol. So, were these rifle-built lowers supposed to have been somehow reported, recorded or "branded" as forever rifle/long gun? Or are we just on the honor system in that regard?

    I wouldn't intentionally break the law, no matter how dumb it is, but if someone were to remove their barrel & stock from a personal rifle build, add a short barrel & brace to make it a pistol, how would anyone ever know? Sorry, but I find this confusing. If I were to buy a used pistol, how could I ever be sure of the lower's original build configuration? Thanks. Sorry if I'm just dumb.
     
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    stage20

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    That's a good question and a run of the serial number you'd be in cuffs or the atf would show up quickly after
     

    War-Buff

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    That's a good question and a run of the serial number you'd be in cuffs or the atf would show up quickly after

    I'm not sure what you are saying. If a stripped lower is on the books as "other," how would anyone be able to tell how it was later completed (i.e. pistol or long gun)? That was my main question. If the serial number is checked, it'd still have to come back as "other," whether it was later built as a pistol or long gun. How does one prove or disprove its original build configuration, unless there is some reporting requirement (whenever a stripped lower is completed) that I'm unaware of?
     

    stage20

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    When you order a complete rifle or transfer it's listed as rifle on paper and must remain that way. If you purchase a pistol you can do as you please with it. Kinda dumb. Stripped lower can be built either way since it's not on the books
     

    Little Jack

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    X39 is much better than the 300WTF and lots of cheaper ammo. 6.8 if you are going to hunt, if you want a LONG barrel the 6.5 grendel but by then just go 308 for better performance

    Frank, I didn't know you like 5.45!!

    Nate,

    Just asking the "not a lawyer" a question. All the lowers I had transferred through you and called in as "other" means that it can be a pistol or rifle of my choosing at any time?

    Transferred as "other". You built them all up as pistols first right? Then you can have them in whatever(non NFA) config you want any time.

    That's a good question and a run of the serial number you'd be in cuffs or the atf would show up quickly after

    You'd have to contact the manufacturer and start following the trail to figure out how a lower was first transferred. When the cops are running SNs they aren't verifying ownership/config, they're looking to see if it was reported stolen. If the serial number hasn't been reported to them previously, they aren't going to get anything. That's probably different in "ban" states with registries.

    I'm not sure what you are saying. If a stripped lower is on the books as "other," how would anyone be able to tell how it was later completed (i.e. pistol or long gun)? That was my main question. If the serial number is checked, it'd still have to come back as "other," whether it was later built as a pistol or long gun. How does one prove or disprove its original build configuration, unless there is some reporting requirement (whenever a stripped lower is completed) that I'm unaware of?

    You buy a "rifle". It's illegal for it to be anything other than a "rifle" without filing NFA paperwork.

    You buy a "pistol". You can convert it into a "rifle", then back into a "pistol". No NFA configurations

    You buy a stripped/virgin receiver. You can build whatever you want (no NFA without the paperwork). If you build a "rifle" first, it's supposed to stay a "rifle" unless you file NFA paperwork. If you build a "pistol" first, you can go back and forth. All my receivers are built as pistols first and that's what I recommend to my customers. There's no reporting requirement. There's no way to prove what you did or didn't do first. That's assuming you aren't a FB/Utube whore and people are able to put 2 and 2 together when you show things maybe you shoudn't have.
     

    War-Buff

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    "You buy a "rifle". It's illegal for it to be anything other than a "rifle" without filing NFA paperwork.

    You buy a "pistol". You can convert it into a "rifle", then back into a "pistol". No NFA configurations

    You buy a stripped/virgin receiver. You can build whatever you want (no NFA without the paperwork). If you build a "rifle" first, it's supposed to stay a "rifle" unless you file NFA paperwork. If you build a "pistol" first, you can go back and forth. All my receivers are built as pistols first and that's what I recommend to my customers. There's no reporting requirement. There's no way to prove what you did or didn't do first. That's assuming you aren't a FB/Utube whore and people are able to put 2 and 2 together when you show things maybe you shoudn't have."


    Thanks for the clarification! Since I've already stated here (oops) that I haven't built a pistol, to be fully compliant, I'll build my next virgin receiver first as a pistol just in case I ever actually want one.
     

    SAWMAN

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    Soooooo . . . if buying COMPLETE lowers,buy the pistol lowers with pistol type brace. Then keep as pistol,change the brace,or add rifle stock WITH 16" bbl. Remembering the 26" rule.
    Would everyone agree with this ?? --- SAWMAN
     

    JWlineman

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    Soooooo . . . if buying COMPLETE lowers,buy the pistol lowers with pistol type brace. Then keep as pistol,change the brace,or add rifle stock WITH 16" bbl. Remembering the 26" rule.
    Would everyone agree with this ?? --- SAWMAN
    This along with the insight Little Jack's gave is probably the best advice for this thread.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     

    Telum Pisces

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    Soooooo . . . if buying COMPLETE lowers,buy the pistol lowers with pistol type brace. Then keep as pistol,change the brace,or add rifle stock WITH 16" bbl. Remembering the 26" rule.
    Would everyone agree with this ?? --- SAWMAN

    That's where it may get even more gray! I've purchased complete lowers with an adjustable stock on them. They are called in as "Other!" If I do nothing with them, they stay as other? If I change out the adjustable stock and put a brace on them and make them a pistol, I'm covered? Does having an adjustable stock on an "other" receiver mean it's a rifle from the start without any other upper components on it???

    I've also heard that having all the parts on hand to make a SBR is considered breaking the law even though you've not put anything together??? Is this right? I have no incomplete firearms on hand right now. But I've often wondered the process of making a SBR out of a pistol when you don't have the ATF paperwork in hand yet but need the parts to put on the paperwork etc...

    Maybe I am just confusing myself even further. I'd like to build a suppressed SBR in the future and want to do it legally and with the least headache as possible.
     

    wildrider666

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    FWIW, the answer to Why you can go one way but not the other without playing NFA games.

    The reconfiguration issue is fallout from two topics:
    1. A rifle (26 AOL) is not considered as concealable. If you shorten its configuration it is considered concealable and subject to additional restrictions of NFA Compliance as a SBR and will never be classified as a pistol/handgun. A pistol/handgun IS already considered concealable, so changing it to a longer rifle configuration (26 AOL/16 barrel) only makes it less concealable and not a issue to LE. If it was legally concealable in origional configuration, it can be returned to that origional configuration without consequences.

    2. ATF blew a gasket so Mfg took them to Court: Thomson Center vs ATF Court decision involving a single shot receiver Kit that included a shoulder stock, pistol grip, and both pistol and rifle length barrels. MFGs hard instructions said not to mix configurations nor assemble pistol barrels while shoulder stock is installed. Kits were sold under handgun Rules. People that bought the rifle (only) version and wanted to slap on pistol parts later on were told it would require NFA Compliance. TC Won the Case, since it was sold as a handgun: it could be reconfigured to be a rifle and back to a handgun again. And thats why you can do it too with pistol receivers but not rifle receivers.

    Link is PDF download on issue from ATF:
    https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/down...FjABegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0AAMORap6rGRdQikPkNdPj
     

    Little Jack

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    That's where it may get even more gray! I've purchased complete lowers with an adjustable stock on them. They are called in as "Other!" If I do nothing with them, they stay as other? If I change out the adjustable stock and put a brace on them and make them a pistol, I'm covered? Does having an adjustable stock on an "other" receiver mean it's a rifle from the start without any other upper components on it???

    I've also heard that having all the parts on hand to make a SBR is considered breaking the law even though you've not put anything together??? Is this right? I have no incomplete firearms on hand right now. But I've often wondered the process of making a SBR out of a pistol when you don't have the ATF paperwork in hand yet but need the parts to put on the paperwork etc...

    Maybe I am just confusing myself even further. I'd like to build a suppressed SBR in the future and want to do it legally and with the least headache as possible.

    If the lower hasn't been built.... It's still an "other". If it came with stock, remove the stock, make a pistol.

    Constructive possession is the Boogeyman for gun owners. It's a thing, but rarely. Having a pistol with a spare stock around, that could go on one of your other rifles, isn't going to be an issue.

    I'm not a lawyer.
     

    wildrider666

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    (in part) I've also heard that having all the parts on hand to make a SBR is considered breaking the law even though you've not put anything together??? Is this right? I have no incomplete firearms on hand right now. But I've often wondered the process of making a SBR out of a pistol when you don't have the ATF paperwork in hand yet but need the parts to put on the paperwork etc...

    The ATF term is "Constructive Possession" If you have possession, control and access of parts that can be assembeled into a NFA Restricted Item and those parts do not serve a seperate purpose: that is a violation by Constructive Possession.
    A. You have a AR rifle w/20 inch barrel and a AR pistol w10.5 inch barrel. They could be switched around to a SBR configuration illegally but those "parts" serve seperate purposes and is completely legal.
    B. You have a complete AR rifle and a seperate pistol 10.5 Upper (only). Since there is no other application present for the pistol upper: it could be considered Constructive Possession under the Law.
    C. A FFL with 5 pistol lowers, 5 rifle lowers and 10 pistol uppers (all unattached) is not in violation of Constructive Posession because these Parts are "For Sale" and that is their seperate purpose.
    D. You have a AR pistol and a AR shoulder Stock that could be installed on the pistol and no other present application: that could be considered Constructive Possession.
    E. You converted your AR rifles to M-LOK furniture and sold the origionals. You have a AK pistol with picatinny quad rails. Your leftover rifle vertical foregrip doesn't match the M-LOK and now: only matches the AK pistol. No other present application: Constructive Possession.

    They are just spare parts is no defense against the parts can be assembled into a NFA Restricted Item.

    Avoiding "Constructive Posession" is the reasoning behind the warnings to get your NFA Approval/Stamps BEFORE you collect the parts to build it.
     

    wildrider666

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    SAWMAN

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    All the above posts are the reason that I am buying either stripped lowers,or lowers with pistol stuff added. There were some good deals from PSA a couple months ago and I bought several. I took pics of all this "questionable" stuff in it's packaged form. Could help . . . maybe not.
    I really have no need for more AR pistols but could surely build a couple more "interesting" rifles. Hopefully this will allow me to change my mind.
    I remember the above mentioned case with T/C. I had my FFL at the time and had just bought 4 stripped frames. I watched the case as closely as possible. The talk on the street was "intent". Did you intend to break any laws ??
    Most likely the same proof is needed for a sucessful prosecution today. Intimidation will be a huge factor in your prosecution to the end result of a guilty plea. Just look at the last year or so in Washington. If it happened to General Flynn,it can surely happen to people here.
    I WILL follow the law as I interpret it . . . to the best of my ability. --- SAWMAN
     

    FLT

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    Just to cover my ass, I sold my hacksaw. Having an AR rifle and a hacksaw could be misconstrued as intent to make a short barrel rifle. :bolt:
     
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