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Tragedy in Grizzly country, several lessons in this encounter

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  • SAWMAN

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    I have a close friend that is an outfitter in Montana. Over the past 30 years he has killed three "threatening" bear while standing over,processing,or packing out,elk and deer kills.
    He is one of the guys that got me into Glocks from 1911's.
    His weapon of choice is a Glock 20. He has had his gun from within a couple years after Glock offered them in the US. ( He was actually friends with "the Glock man" that used to come to all the gun shows with all the Glock OEM parts. In fact,"the Glock man" told me that he was the first person to kill a feral hog with a Glock 20 after they were offered in the states. He worked for Glock for years. )
    I do not know what generation it is but I believe that it does not have finger grooves or a bottom rail. --- SAWMAN
    ADDED: Always remembering "the Glock man".
     

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    FrommerStop

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    I glanced through link's discussion dealing with a charging grizzly reminds me of the 21 foot rule when dealing with a knife wielding opponent. This is quite similar to the 21 foot rule for someone having time to draw and fire when confronted by knife man. The typical person often will not have time to fire before being overwhelmed by the knifeman. The fact is the most animals if they attack from cover in ambush will reach a typical human with a holstered fire arm with not being shot at. In this case the victim was not wearing his pistol when butchering and dealing with a carcass. The hunter did not have time to react to the first attack, but by the second attack did deploy the bear spray the did not save his life.
    He did discharge the spray, dousing the grizzly, but official reports have confirmed the spray was deployed sometime after the first attack.
    It was not a failure for the pistol, but of the hunter. Title should be the time to required to deploy a pistol that is not within their immediate reach.

    It was not a huge bear '250-pound bear' and was within the range of local blackbears.

    I remember many years ago, when I was teenager about 1961, My uncle and I climbed down a very steep canyon that was one of three streams forming the clark's fork. At the bottom he observed a lot of bear sign and large tracks and said that we should leave and we did. Up close if a bear charged even though we had .357 mag and .22 pistols we did not want to deal with a bear at close range.
     

    FrommerStop

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    From wiki on the 21 foot rule
    The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

    Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1][2]

    A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being accused of murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[3]

    The Tueller Drill combines both parts of the original time trials by Tueller. There are several ways it can be conducted:[4]

    The (simulated) attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the "attacker" sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).
    A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.
    If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.

    MythBusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemmas". At 20 ft (6.1 m), the gun-wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot.[5]
     

    SAWMAN

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    Talked to my buddy out in Montana last night. The incidences that he has had with bear he has seen the bear coming from 100+yds away. The bear were not at a full run,however they were in the "agressive mode".
    Remember also . . . if you shoot a bear or a human that is already coming towards you,his momentum will most likely carry him into you unless it is a massive CNS hit with a large(r) caliber bullet.
    A human will most likely be able to cut you/stab you multiple times before his BP drops too low to allow his brain to function without a CNS hit.
    Some of use here have shot deer through the heart and they run for 50-100yds+. --- SAWMAN
     

    FrommerStop

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    The more advanced fighting schools that teach force on force deal with getting off the X for close range encounters with people. Especially important when being charged by someone with a knife at close range and might work with a dying charging animal.
    Below is a demonstration of it from a Non-SI Group

    Below is how someone in martial arts trains to learn the movement and Brent is an associate of SI. They were the first ones to popularize it, but people have likely been doing this for millennia. G. Suarez the owner of SI says he discovered it accidentally when he confronted a robber. Both had their guns out and he instinctively stepped to the side and killed the man and his opponent fired where he had been since could not reset his ooda loop in time. If you do not know what an ooda loop is then study and train more.
     

    Viking1204

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    They weren't hunting, they had returned the next day to recover an animal shot the previous day. I don't know how a guide in bear country doesn't have a large caliber wheel gun on his ankle and hip. There is no way I go into bear country to recover a kill without at least that on my person. I'm surprised too that the hunter didn't have at least a holstered weapon on him that he knew hot to use. The only gun they had was the guide's gun up the hill with their bags, just doesn't seem like a smart move in bear country, god bless his soul.
     

    Chrisflvs

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    With Wyoming having a relatively low Grizzly population it's possible this guide was being complacent. Pistol was away from hand AT the kill site (elk) and anyone that takes Grizzlies seriously wouldn't rely on a can of spray to save their life. When I'm in Kodiak or other regions of bear country a G20 SF with hot loads on a chest rig is my go to.
    Above all, situational awareness is key.
     

    wildrider666

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    I've never been a "Bow Hunter". If I was an out of State bow guy looking for a hunt, I would book it where you could carry a Backup Handgun! Bear, Griz (higher danger), cougar, wolf, even a pack of yotes can be life threatening.

    https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2015/09/01/idaho-bowhunters-backup-gun-saves-grizzly-attack/

    In the referenced OP incident, a handgun ON HIS BODY may well have made a difference! Having a long gun doesn't work when your "in full contact" long guns are basically a two hand proposition and require a bit of seperation. The Guides gun being out of reach is a fatal tactical wildlife error. The Clients lack of familiarity or under stress ability with a Glock is not a contributing factor. Opertunity to intervene is not the same as responsibility to do so.

    The article references the possibility of 1.5 to 3 seconds to respond. I disagree. You must first be "aware" of a situation before your brain/body can process (normal frozen while initial processing) then either stay in shock/frozen or begin reflex defensive action. Guide and client were focused on game recovery. The bear (poor eyesight, great nose) could have stalked them and only have charged a few feet.. Anyone who has time in the woods with big game knows how quietly they move, even through dense brush! In a clearing, only what lies under paw/foot has noise potential. Doesn't matter who you are, you let your guard down at you own peril.
     

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