Hog Slayer upper aggravation and then success

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  • Daezee

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    Earlier I posted pics of my Hog Slayer/SUS VENATOR AR hand guard and mentioned POI problems with my Green Mountain 16" fluted, chrome lined 4150 steel Blackout bbl. Using the Barnes 110gr black tip 300 Blackout bullets which I've come to really like for hunting, no matter what the powder charge or primer, the 1st bullet would hit low. Tried it with and without multiple suppressors, different bolts, different magazines, different number of rounds in magazine, letting bolt go home with bolt catch, letting bolt go home by pulling charge handle all the was back and letting go, loading first round by placing it on top of mag, checking all screws, taking all apart and putting upper back together, firing fast so all was getting hot, firing SLOW (as in 1 shot per 5 or more minutes with fans cooling all in-between shots to ambient temperature so the bbl was always shot cold, clean bore/dirty bore, it made no difference, the 1st shot was out 90% of the time. Gaged the throat (a new bbl, it gaged as new). Also tried a group loading 1 round at a time...nice group, just all shots were low. No obvious defects seen in the bbl. Representative groups:

    DSCN3566.JPG DSCN3567.JPG DSCN3568.JPG

    Getting desperate/perturbed/frustrated/whatever, prior to going home the other day, I fired 2 quick groups with one of my plinking loads using pulled 7.62x39 123gr fmj bullets. While the groups weren't small, only of soda can size, the 1st rounds were in the middle of the groups. Hmm...I decided to try some loads with the Nosler 125gr Ballistic Tip bullets. I'd used them for years (taking 7 hogs, 10 deer, and 3 coyotes) until the Barnes became readily available. It was like flipping a light switch. No more 1st round is out of the group in the 10 groups I fired today. I did find with the Noslers that with an cartridge OAL of 2.1" about 25% of the time I had a failure to feed with the round jammed against the feed ramp. With a 2.2" OAL I had zero failures to feed. I have loads with both OAL's on hand, as some of my other Blackouts have an OAL preference for either feeding or accuracy. You'll note the POI varied...As I was shooting groups and getting good results, I was also tweaking the POI to get it closer to sighted in. Representative groups:

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    4' from the chronograph, 19.0gr H110, Nosler 125gr BT, Wolf KVB223M primers, 2.2" OAL, LC formed brass, no crimp, no anneal, averaged 2198fps. A little faster than in some of my 16" bbls and a little slower than in some of my 16" bbls. Note: This is a hot load; start low and work up. If this powder charge was used at 2.1" OAL it would definitely be overpressure. Also the KVB223M primer is a harder primer for higher pressure loads.

    It was suggested that I eject the 1st round chambered. Fire some more and eject the 2nd or 3rd round chambered and compare the bullet tips. Didn't do that, as I'd not brought any of the Barnes loads to my last two outings to test ammo...interesting idea, but I don't know it would solve the problem. Another idea was to shoot my first loaded round into the ground prior to walking to the hunting area. While that would work at my brother's farm, it might not be feasible for night hog hunting when you may have occasion to unload and reload when going to different fields or areas.
     

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    SAWMAN

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    Sorry Bruce. I read this several times and still do not understand the cause of the problem (first round flyer), or the fix to that problem unless the fix was simply changing bullets.
    Have you ever tried the 130gr Hog Hammer pulls ??
    Were the above pictured groups at 34yds ?? --- SAWMAN
     
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    Jester896

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    that is kinda hot...IIRC I used 17.8 in mine with SSTs and did crimp in the grove...can't remember the OAL and used #41 primers. Groups look good though! Especially the center one.
     

    Daezee

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    50 yd groups. 130 Hog Hammer load tried for one group with an existing load that the RARR likes. No flyer, but group not small enough for me; no further testing done with that bullet at this time, as I am not sure they will expand enough for deer. Test groups were shot over 4 days.

    I know, it makes no sense, but you can see the groups. I could have posted more groups, but they all look similar with the first shot going low. The very first group did not have the low hit. Then about the 10th group had no low first shot hit followed by about 10 more groups with a first round low hit. Tried 4 powder charges and 2 primers with the 110 Barnes. Bbl and suppressors were normally kept cool using 2 fans and an umbrella for shade. One group really fell apart, but then I noticed the suppressor had loosened on the bbl. The group without the hand guard installed, just the bare bbl also sucked.

    The center group was the group fired fast with the Nosler getting the bbl and suppressor hot
     

    SAWMAN

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    Unless I am missing something,I really do not see how the first shot low problem could have anything to do with your load . . . powder,primer,or bullet,or brass.
    Something changes between the first shot and second shot then remains the same for the following shots . . . right.
    I'm thinking how the ammo sits in the mag. Bullet nose deformed. Bullet seating depth due to inertia. Something loosens up,tightens up,shifts,etc,etc.
    Could not be scope or scope mounting hardware problem either,otherwise no tight group after the first shot. Could be the shooter. Did you have anyone else shoot the gun ?? Did you place the gun in the bags and mount the gun,the exact same way everytime ?? --- SAWMAN
    ADDED: I usually tell people . . . If your groups start getting down to one ragged hole,even at 50 yds,nothing changes between the 5 shots unless your having awfully bad luck.
    Consistancy is the shooters blessing. And this usually only comes with having attended a GREATFULL DEAD concert back in the early 70's.
     
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    Daezee

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    Rifle put on bags and not moved for each group, being careful to keep the hand guard at the same spot on the front rest. Fan blowing on bbl and suppressor with the air not blowing in front of the muzzle. Oh, two different lowers tried with two types of butt stocks and two weights of buffers. Rifle not shot by anyone else, but did have witnesses suggesting different things to try. Screws periodically checked to make sure all had not loosened. After each group my Caldwell bbl cooler was inserted into the mag well and run for at least 5 minutes in addition to the external fan running constantly...I wanted the bbl kept cool like when hunting. Tried to keep same grip on rifle from shot to shot.

    At least it shoots well with the Noslers, and I have lots of them. Will try more Barnes after another few hundred rounds are fired in case Something gets worn in.
     

    SAWMAN

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    The Noslers are the BT HUNTING right ??
    If them Sierra 125 gr Pro Hunters will work for you,I will return them to you.
    Remember,the 125gr BT HUNTING is darn near identical to the Accubond's. Fairly thick jacket and base. Do they open ok at 150yds from a BO ??
    Have you tried a 10rd MagPul mag ?? I can loan you one if you want to try it. IMHO you do not need a heavy long 20rd mag hanging down below your gun anyway. BTW . . . was your mag touching bag or bench ?? --- SAWMAN
     
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    Daezee

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    The Noslers are the BT HUNTING right ??
    If them Sierra 125 gr Pro Hunters will work for you,I will return them to you.
    Remember,the 125gr BT HUNTING is darn near identical to the Accubond's. Fairly thick jacket and base. Do they open ok at 150yds from a BO ??
    Have you tried a 10rd MagPul mag ?? I can loan you one if you want to try it. IMHO you do not need a heavy long 20rd mag hanging down below your gun anyway. BTW . . . was your mag touching bag or bench ?? --- SAWMAN

    Nosler 125gr Ballistic Tip. My farthest deer was 187yd measured. 16" bbl Blackout. I was in elevated stand on a rise. Big doe facing me, head starting to move down to eat. Hit about 1" from center of neck, followed neck, through one lung, through stomach and expanded bullet stopped just inside hide at belly. Bullet lost the jacket in the body somewhere along the bullet path. This was the only Nosler 125 BT that I've ever had that failed to exit a deer (other shots are more when deer are broadside). The same bullet out of an 8" Blackout hit my largest hog in the shield at ~100yd and stopped expanded against the spine without penetrating the spine. Calculated velocity vs Nosler expansion velocity gave a 100yd max range with that short bbl set up. That's when I decided I wanted more hog penetration and switched to the 110gr Barnes. Of course a longer bbl would have given higher velocity and probably more penetration on a hog. I never used that short a bbl again in hunting hogs (but did use it hunting deer at the neighbor's with my goat herd), but it should be fine for sows and 150lb or less boars.

    My Blackout hunting started with the Sierra 125gr Pro Hunter because I couldn't find enough of the more accurate Noslers (about 10 came with the used rifle I bought, enough for 2 groups and wow did they shoot accurately). I took 3 deer with the Pro Hunters that first year. All broadside double lung shots. All bullets exited. All bullets appeared to expand (more so if a rib was hit). 2 deer ran about 40-50yd and dropped. 1 ran a short distance and ran head-on into a big tree, bounced off, and dropped within my view. Funny story: My brother heard the thump of the dear/tree collision and couldn't figure out the strange noise he heard in his woods until I told him what happened; he had been about 75yd away in another direction.

    Yep, got a couple of the 10rd Mags I use in Georgia so I don't have much hanging down off the AR to get caught in the stand. I do feel the Nosler 125's at Blackout velocity do not always give rapid expansion on broadside coyote hits. Remember the broadside hit coyote blood trail we followed and then lost when the bleeding stopped? On the other hand, the 2 coyotes I hit with the Noslers that a were facing me dropped right there with chest center hits.

    Mags not touching rest or bench. Using short mags so as to not have them touch anything.

    Oh, using Blackout velocity and Nosler recommended velocity for expansion of the 125 BT and rounding off the calculations to make it easy to remember, 8" bbl = 100yd set up, 9-10" bbl = 150yd set up, 16" bbl = 200yd set up.
     
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    B52

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    Now post pictures of the new Hog Slayer hand guard.
     

    Daezee

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