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Friendly Fire - LEO shooting the good guys. How to prevent?

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  • Jeb21

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    We had some discussion on the previous thread about LEO shooting unarmed men, and I wanted to expand the discussion to situations where the LEO shoots the victim, or good guy.


    Question 1
    There was a shooting in GA last year where a homeowner called 911 to deal with an intruder and was in turn shot by the police when the LEO arrived. There was the Australian lady who called 911 to respond to an assault outside of her house, she was shot by the responding LEO. There was a shooting at a traffic stop of a lawfully owned CCW holder.

    These are tragedies for all involved, LEOs included. How does a civilian prevent this from happening? Stay on 911 with the operator and fully describe yourself so the LEO can recognize you? Anything else we can do?

    Question 2
    Here are series of articles about a different situation. The homeowner is at home asleep when he is awoken by police who are executing a raid/warrant ON THE WRONG HOUSE. In two of the cases, the home owner answers the door armed, it is not clear to me if the third homeowner is armed when he answers the door. In all three cases the homeowner is shot in a matter of seconds by the police.

    The police in GA went to the wrong home and the homeowner answered the door with a gun. He was shot in the neck and died.
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-police-shoot-homeowner-responding-wrong-home/story?id=39723930

    Here is another one in GA where the police go to the wrong home and shoot the armed homeowner.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2017...ment-attacked-eleventh-circuit-appeals-court/ (this article is pretty biased against the police but it does raise some interesting points about the right to defend your home vs the police right to exercise their legal duties- even if at the time the police are mistaken as to where they are and whom they are dealing with.)

    Here is another wrong address shooting in GA. This time the dog was killed and the homeowner wounded.

    https://www.myajc.com/news/local-go...shooting-east-atlanta/6tPHl5j8QQgIKhiVzRiMHJ/

    I could post another half dozen or so articles from the last two years on the same or similar scenario including several where the homeowners were elderly women shot in their bedrooms. Mistaken shootings by LEO of homeowners are not uncommon and are often fatal.


    Obviously, serving a warrant on a home is a dangerous job. Speed and surprise can be a LEO ally in trying to get in an arrest the bad guy before any blood is shed. However, this tactic can backfire when the homeowner is a good guy who is awoken in the middle of the night to pounding and yelling but to no other obvious indications of a police officer. - such as emergency lights. Another problem is the confusion in the first minute of the raid. Shouting, darkness, aggressive movement are all going to trigger a fear of a home invasion by the homeowner. How do we reduce the risk of this type of tragedy?

    This is not a purely hypothetical series of questions for me. I teach CCW classes and this topic comes up a lot. Also, even though I live in the middle of nowhere with no neighbors within a 1/4 mile of me in a house that is 1/4 mile off of the road and not visible from the road, LEO have mistakenly come to my house twice in the last few years. Fortunately, it was during the day and they were not executing a warrant but still . . .I have dogs and I was armed with a concealed carry handgun on both occasions.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    Your questions are directed at how a civilian can prevent these tragedies, right?
    Not, how can LEO prevent them, or the completely different topic of "blame", correct?

    You are looking for discussion on tips about how the civilian, Non-LEO, can prevent these mistakes?

    Well, I would like to think that God forbid I had need to call 911, I'd give the address and description of events/people as clearly as able. (Who knows, though. Adrenaline or physical wounds might restrict what is said).

    After police arrive, ACT as Non-threatening as able: physically show them your hands, move Slowly/deliberately, speak and explain ("I'm the victim", "My spouse/child/etc is in the next room", "the attacker is armed and ran out the back door"), and follow the LEO's instructions.

    As for the tragedy of some team executing a surprise warrant on the WRONG house, well... you said you want to discuss this from the civilian perspective for how to not get killed by LEO? The "wrong house" scenario becomes a "who figures it out first and can the violence be de-escalated before someone dies" kinda thing.

    Make your choice: if someone were to bust through your door guns blazing, do you ASSume it's the cops on a wrong house warrant, or do you ASSume it's a criminal intent on doing you and your family horrible harm?

    This discussion is about self-preservation, right?

    Those first few moments would probably dictate the outcome: how quick and overwhelming were the mistaken LEO, how quick were you to act, etc...
     

    TK5o

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    The first article you listed does not apply. Even though the police were at the wrong house, law enforcemnent told him to drop the gun which he REFUSED to do as the article states. If he would have complied with that simple order then the situation would have resolved itself. I can almost guarantee they told him Multiple times to drop the gun and he refused.

    The second article states that there is conflicting evidence as to the actions of the homeowner

    The third article seems to read that the police were acting in self defense against an animal and the homeowner and another officer were hit in crossfire

    Now. Im not saying mistakes dont happen cause every profession has them. And Im sure these families or individuals may be owed some compensation. But in these three articles the end results are Not 100% the fault of the police. If actions of the other parties involved had been different then so would the outcomes
     

    MauserLarry

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    "Not 100% the fault of the police." How the hell do you figure it's not 100% the fault of the police? There were at the wrong house by your own admission. I have always supported the police but any police raid on the wrong house should be immediate termination of all concerned, regardless of whether any violence occurred or not.
     

    spongemonkey

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    I see this thread being locked in the future as has many others in the past.
    Warrant served on the wrong home, the leo are at fault and they bear the sole responsibilites of the outcome.
     

    TK5o

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    The police are the majority of the time given the addresses by dispatch. So by your logic lets hold the civillian dispatchers accountable for the police actions on scene since they are the ones who gave the wrong address to the police. But wait! Where did the dispatchers get their info? And it keeps going shifting blame and still nothing gets fixed. But like I said the actions of those individuals on scene could have changed the outcomes for all involved.

    Other thoughts. Everybody is so quick to blame the officer on scene for his/her split second and possibly life/death decisions without: 1. Knowing all the facts (which the officer may not even have all the info and only acts on what is known) 2. Not knowing the level of training or any background on the officer be it past experiences or personal issues. 3. Actually having done the job and faced those decisions yourself.

    For those of you in the military. When you were given info from a higher up to complete a task did you have to go back and second guess the info or did you act on what was given?

    Again. Im not saying that the Departments are not liable. Those families are owed something. But I dont believe the individual officer should be crucified in court of public opion for acting on info given by others and certainly not for the actions of others once on scene. Especially in the three articles mentioned. And. Im not saying the wrong house scenerio has not or does not happen as I have seen several areas around town with multiple houses in one address or similar setups. We dont have that info fron the articles either
     
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    FLT

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    Tic toc another thread about to be locked. A bait thread starter just to cause trouble, the fantastic four master baiters have been busy lately.
     

    Jeb21

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    Your questions are directed at how a civilian can prevent these tragedies, right?
    Not, how can LEO prevent them, or the completely different topic of "blame", correct?

    You are looking for discussion on tips about how the civilian, Non-LEO, can prevent these mistakes?

    Well, I would like to think that God forbid I had need to call 911, I'd give the address and description of events/people as clearly as able. (Who knows, though. Adrenaline or physical wounds might restrict what is said).

    After police arrive, ACT as Non-threatening as able: physically show them your hands, move Slowly/deliberately, speak and explain ("I'm the victim", "My spouse/child/etc is in the next room", "the attacker is armed and ran out the back door"), and follow the LEO's instructions.

    As for the tragedy of some team executing a surprise warrant on the WRONG house, well... you said you want to discuss this from the civilian perspective for how to not get killed by LEO? The "wrong house" scenario becomes a "who figures it out first and can the violence be de-escalated before someone dies" kinda thing.

    Make your choice: if someone were to bust through your door guns blazing, do you ASSume it's the cops on a wrong house warrant, or do you ASSume it's a criminal intent on doing you and your family horrible harm?

    This discussion is about self-preservation, right?

    Those first few moments would probably dictate the outcome: how quick and overwhelming were the mistaken LEO, how quick were you to act, etc...

    Thanks for your response - this was not intended as a blame game against LEO it really is about how to interact with police so as to reduce the risk of friendly fire.
     

    TK5o

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    Thanks for your response - this was not intended as a blame game against LEO it really is about how to interact with police so as to reduce the risk of friendly fire.

    Based on that. During a intense or “hot” situation. Listen carefully and follow all orders given by the police. You may end up in cuffs for a brief period but it will resolve itself and everybody gets to go or stay home as the case may be. Simple easy advice.

    I remember stories of when people respected the police officer. If not the person themself certainly the position held. And if something wrong did happen thats what the court system is for.. Too many people have lack of respect for the position and try to bucknthe system at the wrong time. Police have a job to do and holding court on the street is not one of them. Thats what the lawyers and judges are for
     

    Jeb21

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    Tic toc another thread about to be locked. A bait thread starter just to cause trouble, the fantastic four master baiters have been busy lately.

    You are far too young to be so cynical. What brought this to a head for me was the recent shooting at the Oklahoma City restaurant where an off duty security guard heard gunfire and responded by intervening and shot (killed?) the active shooter. I was wondering what the good guy did next when the police arrived. After all there is a report of an active shooter, and the good guy in on the scene armed and with a wounded or dead man at his feet. How does he convey to police that he was not the suspect? How does he avoid being shot?

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/24/us/oklahoma-city-shooting/index.html







    BTW does it bother anyone that this story runs for a single day and most people don't even know the name of the good guy who intervened. But the Parkland shooting has been in the news for months and everyone knows the name of that shooter. The hero is soon forgotten while the villain lives on in infamy forever, it seems.
     

    TK5o

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    That situation is entirely different than your original post. The police response on scene would be entirely different than a raid team on a house. There would likely be multiple witnesses giving info to police and most likely calling in to dispatch which would provide info to officers en route. But it would ultimately boil down to the same issue. When police arrive listen and follow all commands and all will end well
     

    spongemonkey

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    BTW does it bother anyone that this story runs for a single day and most people don't even know the name of the good guy who intervened. But the Parkland shooting has been in the news for months and everyone knows the name of that shooter. The hero is soon forgotten while the villain lives on in infamy forever, it seems.

    Chaulk that up to the liberals and the media. That story does not fit their agenda.
     

    Jeb21

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    Based on that. During a intense or “hot” situation. Listen carefully and follow all orders given by the police. You may end up in cuffs for a brief period but it will resolve itself and everybody gets to go or stay home as the case may be. Simple easy advice.


    Simple in principle but sometimes difficult in practice. I have watched more than a few police dash board videos and a just a few body cams. The one thing that seems to be consistent it that when you have multiple officers on the scene you will get contradictory commands, at least at first. The quote from the movie Raising Arizona comes to mind "Well which is it young fella, do you want me to freeze or to get down on the ground? Cause if'n I freeze then I can't exactly get down on the ground."

    The other thing that strikes me when watching these videos is just how quickly the police go from commanding to acting. If there is not near immediate compliance with the command, then the officer will resort to plan B. I am sure that the time interval seems a lot longer to the participant than to a video observer but it is pretty damn quick. I am also sure that for their own safety and survival officers are encouraged to be pro-active in those situations.

    Other things that I have learned from watching the videos is that sassing the officer seems to be a horrible idea, as does moving quickly. Fleeing is a bad idea but stopping your flight to turn back to the officer is a death sentence.
     

    Jeb21

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    That situation is entirely different than your original post. The police response on scene would be entirely different than a raid team on a house. There would likely be multiple witnesses giving info to police and most likely calling in to dispatch which would provide info to officers en route. But it would ultimately boil down to the same issue. When police arrive listen and follow all commands and all will end well

    Good points, thanks.
     

    Jeb21

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    Chaulk that up to the liberals and the media. That story does not fit their agenda.

    Well it fits FOX new agenda, why can't they keep it going? We very rarely hear any stories about the good guy using a gun to stop an attack. The public perception is that guns are only used by crazy people and criminals to kill. The public perception is not, as the NRA says, that guns are used by law abiding citizen more than 50,000 times a year. We need to do a better job of getting that fact out there.
     

    spongemonkey

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    Well it fits FOX new agenda, why can't they keep it going? We very rarely hear any stories about the good guy using a gun to stop an attack. The public perception is that guns are only used by crazy people and criminals to kill. The public perception is not, as the NRA says, that guns are used by law abiding citizen more than 50,000 times a year. We need to do a better job of getting that fact out there.

    You can lead a horse to water, but, you can not make them drink. :wink:
     

    wildrider666

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    I think this is a valid topic generally but the value is not in who is to blame or right verses wrong. The value is in identifying the on-site actions of all parties involved; their individual and group starting point situational awareness (asleep, tactically briefed, surprised), their CURRENT ability to mentally process events start and or modify their actions with limited or unconfirmed informaton, their expectations, individual perceptions, simultaneous default action(s) (from ingrained training or act of self preservation) individually or group (one cop fires more cops fire though each one may not have seen the prompting threat).

    Hindsight is 20/20 but even that doesn't gain universal agreement. Each and every participant is responsible for their actions, come as they are with what they think they know or perceive. It would be great to eliminate all human error but that is not likely.
     

    Jeb21

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    The blame game will not keep you alive. Knowing what could go wrong and acting to avoid those mistakes is my goal. Having said that, I think both civilians and police could use some additional training on how to interact with each other, civilians especially. My life experience has caused me to always view LEO as friend or allies. They have a tough shitty job, that is entirely too stressful and we only pay attention to them when they screw up.
     

    wildrider666

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    ...... I was wondering what the good guy did next when the police arrived. After all there is a report of an active shooter, and the good guy in on the scene armed and with a wounded or dead man at his feet. How does he convey to police that he was not the suspect? How does he avoid being shot?.

    From a non-lawyer:
    Understanding there are different levels of BG down (some obvious, others not): Achieve a level of safety from down BG by distance and/or barrier. Secure you firearm (holster or place it on the ground between your feet. Maintain and clearly show open empty hands. No suprises: alert the officers to your non hostile presence, tell officers where your firearm is. Follow all orders: verbally acknowledge them with slow deliberate movement. Ask BEFORE you do anything. Expect to be cuffed & stuffed, questioned w/wo Rights and a ride to the Station. Answering questions is something you with lawyers input have decided generically long before this event. It will take time to sort out the basics and more for the details. This is pretty general but you can google the basic question, it has been addressed a by a lot of duty experts with various backgrounds and experience.
     
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