These situations arise at this outcome mainly because of these no knock raids. What's sad is the reasoning behind the no knocks, it's drugs. A few of you may pipe in and say it's for known dangerous or armed people with warrants, but it's not. Yes, there are situations where the person is dangerous and they need to do a no knock, but weed takes precedence. Babies are getting flash bangs thrown in their cribs, for weed. Unarmed citizens and their pets are being shot, for weed. These no knocks are stupidly dangerous for LEOs as well as citizens. Maybe make the LEOs stop using them for their war on drugs and reserve them for when they're actually needed. On another note, there are several documented cases of robbers wearing uniforms and replicating a search warrant to raid citizens without them knowing what's happening until it's too late. This is why people are shooting back.

The flash bang in the crib, burning the baby incident: Agent provided false information that was used to get the Warrant.

https://www.copblock.org/155092/3-6...sh-bang-grenade-raid-maiming-of-baby-bou-bou/


"Weed" is a inaccurate and diminishing term if your using it interchangeably to represent all forms of illegal drugs in your generalizations. A lot of people die over weed related criminal activity nonetheless.

wildrider666 said:

The flash bang in the crib, burning the baby incident: Agent provided false information that was used to get the Warrant.

https://www.copblock.org/155092/3-6...sh-bang-grenade-raid-maiming-of-baby-bou-bou/


"Weed" is a inaccurate and diminishing term if your using it interchangeably to represent all forms of illegal drugs in your generalizations. A lot of people die over weed related criminal activity nonetheless.

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A key line from this article being, "The raid was conducted at around 3:00 am for a drug suspect that wasn’t even in the house." Drug suspect. Yes I was using it interchangeably but referred to drugs in my first example. Again, all this pain and deaths for nothing more than something that probably shouldn't be illegal to begin with. If you make it legal, you take away all that criminal activity, extensive incarceration, stigmata and curiosity, and misinformation. It's a much more viable option as what we've been doing clearly doesn't work.

wildrider666 said:

The flash bang in the crib, burning the baby incident: Agent provided false information that was used to get the Warrant.

https://www.copblock.org/155092/3-6...sh-bang-grenade-raid-maiming-of-baby-bou-bou/


"Weed" is a inaccurate and diminishing term if your using it interchangeably to represent all forms of illegal drugs in your generalizations. A lot of people die over weed related criminal activity nonetheless.

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Picture of the baby afterwards.
Family was awarded 3.6 million from multiple cases files against different parties that took park in the raid.
Family was staying in the house with relatives after their house in another state had burned down.

The raid was conducted at around 3:00 am for a drug suspect that wasn’t even in the house. By happen-stance, the Phonesavanh family was staying at the residence with relatives because their home in Wisconsin had just burned down.

“[The grenade] landed in his playpen and exploded on his pillow right in his face,” Bou Bou’s mother, Alecia Phonesavanh said at the time. “He’s only a baby. He didn’t deserve any of this.”

Following the raid, the child was rushed to the Grady Memorial Hospital where he was put into a medically induced coma. In the wake of the incident, Habersham County attorneys said that “the board of commissioners concluded that it would be in violation of the law” to pay for Bou Bou’s medical bills.

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In this case they should have hung the bunch of them that staged the raid, but that is not how things work out.

Those pictures are very disturbing. The refusal to pay for the baby's medical bills is outrageous. "Violation of the law to pay the bills"????? violation of the law to do the decent thing??? Violation of the law to accept responsibility to the horror inflicted upon the family?

Jeb21 said:

Those pictures are very disturbing. The refusal to pay for the baby's medical bills is outrageous. "Violation of the law to pay the bills"????? violation of the law to do the decent thing??? Violation of the law to accept responsibility to the horror inflicted upon the family?

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The family from the name could be from southeast asia and that might have played a role in what happened.

Warrant or not, one should not be tossing flash bangs around in such a cavalier manner. We are only hearing one side to the story here and I would like hear why police raiders found it necessary to throw that grenade into an occupied dwelling. Perhaps there is more to this story. I hope so anyway.

Officers in civ cloths shot by LE, could just as well be Good Guys with guns. A Study

What about Incidents away from the Home where LE is dispatched (some info right , wrong or incomplete) or encounters (observed during Patrol). The problem is I can't find consolidated data on LE encountering good guys with guns drawn. There is a Study on Blue on Blue undecover/off duty/out of uniform shootings. There is a lot of commonality in these Cases with a scenario of LE vs good guys with guns with the exception that the civie wearing officer are acting within scope of employment and their mindset is they are" perceived as officers". For the most part these incidents are the same as a good guy with a gun until LE finds credentials on the body.

Physical and psychological factors can impact all involved and contribute significantly to perceptions and actions. LE says don't move, drop the gun but your ears are still ringing so turn towards the voice to see what it is: Bang. There are many omissions of action, misinterpreted cues and thing in plain sight that are not seen under stress.

There is information that the public generally does not know. "Justified" is presented to the public as an absolute but there are sublevels that reveal other options, errors and human factors that deminish that absolute! Because this is a Blue on Blue death Study, it contains information for LE use and for consumption by interested parties including Gov officials and Famiies of Officers involved. It exposes flaws that only insiders may know. If you really digest all 83 pages, you will never view any officer involved shooting the same way irregardless of who is on the pavement.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...ent-Danger-Report-of-the-Task.html#document/1

We are hearing only once side, though there was information that the agent admitted to falsifying the information used to get the warrant. Here is a quote from the article


"The only officer that faced any charges as a result of the incident was twenty-nine-year-old Nikki Autry – a special agent of the Mountain Judicial Circuit Criminal Investigation and Suppression Team (NCIS).

She was indicted by a federal grand jury in July for providing false information in a search warrant affidavit and providing the same false information to obtain an arrest warrant that ultimately led to the raid."

I am angry that the authorities were not willing to immediately step up and take care of the bills associated with the raid.

Good report, thanks for the link

I might be all jacked up in my thoughts on this but there are enough crazies in the world, whats one more. A lot of good points brought up here I think, and I enjoy different views. I have never been a LEO so I can only guess as to the hardships and duties and responsibilities required to be a good one. I have had both good and bad encounters with LEOs even though I remain calm, do as I am told and keep my hands where visible at all time. Anyhow

LEOs should have a height and weight standard in addition to advanced marksmanship training. An physically incapable officer is more likely to use lethal or non lethal means to subdue a suspect, whereas a trained and in shape officer will be able to physically control the situation without escalation. Keeping in mind the nature or combativeness of the suspect should dictate the amount of force required of course. Sometimes a drunk or mentally ill citizen does not deserve to get tazed, shot, or beaten to an inch of their lives.

To that end. LEOs should remember that they are members of the community and should integrate themselves as such. They are our neighbors and should be our friends. They have a very difficult job in that they have to show an incredible amount of restraint while dealing with our fellow citizens. On top of physical prowess, good marksmanship, our LEOs should remember to attempt to de escalate situations when at all possible. Everyone has a bad day sometimes but that does not deserve getting shot or beaten just because the LEO "was in fear for his/her safety."

LEOs should not look like Rangers assaulting a Taliban compound. There are seldom situations where camo is required and it certainly is not in residential areas. The more highlighted the words POLICE are, the more likely the perp will know to comply. Stating loudly who you are and dressed the part will avoid mistakes. I am a law abiding citizen but if there is a squad of guys stacked up on my door trying to make entry...umm it would probably be a bad day for all involved. If they looked like cops and presented themselves as such then I would likely answer the door politely and ask what the problem was. By the time they figure out they got the wrong address no big deal. If you are a land nav failure during a raid, doesnt matter who you are, you are responsible for what happens during the contact.

I feel LEO should have access to specialty equipment like flash and stun grenades, carbines, sniper rifles, and even de-milled armored vehicles. I do not think it is necessary to use said items if you do not have to. Preservation of life is the goal isnt it? Otherwise join up and be a soldier where the ROE is a bit different. Additionally, if you are a LEO and military veteran and have debilitating PTSD, then I do no feel that you should be working in that job. The likely hood of escalation to the point of a citizen getting seriously hurt grows if the LEO is prone to "blackouts" or "violent outbursts" May not be a popular opinion but it is in the interest of the public not the individual.

All that said. I truly respect and admire the good LEOs out there that understand their jobs, and the powers entrusted in them and do not abuse it. This is not Iraq or Afghanistan, and should not be killing citizens without absolutely just cause. Too many citizens get shot because they were going for their wallet, where as a well trained officer could still have presented and shot had the individual produced a weapon. It happens fast but thats the beauty of training. Remember there are plenty of reasons sometimes that an individual does not comply and that does not always mean they are being combatant. They could be deaf, blind, autistic, scared, etc.

Just my opinion on the subject, take it for what its worth

"Justified" is presented to the public as an absolute but there are sublevels that reveal other options, errors and human factors that deminish that absolute!"

The amount of "justified" shootings that are clearly executions is just fucking unsettling. The police will continue to be viewed as "the enemy" as long as they keep treating civilians as such. It is not an "us vs them" society. Only in their eyes is it. I'm tired of seeing murderers walk free as I'm sure most of the country is as well. "One bad apple" is often said to justify these officers' actions, but "spoils the bunch", is often left out. Good cops need to stop covering for bad cops. This "blue line" is turning red with the blood of innocent people. Red has some very good points. This whole militarization of the police in this country has got to stop. SWAT teams in full regalia don't need to be conducting search warrants for most of the shit they're doing.

As a society we can call for the return of police to peace officers instead of pseudo-soldiers. In the meantime, we have to realize that there are times when LEO can have a hair trigger. Guilt by association is a real thing so watch who you spend time with because they can get you killed.

I mentioned before I have watched a lot of dashboard cams as part of my job. In the last year or so I have also watched a lot of dash board cam and body cam videos on my own time of officers being shot/killed. The part that always amazes me is just how fast an encounter can go from peaceful to violent. Literally in a blink of an eye an officer goes from being upright to down and bleeding out. I am sure LEOs are seeing the same videos as part of their training, It must be very scary stuff to watch a fellow officer getting gunned down,

I really believe that if LEO went back to having a ride along partner it would make them a lot safer and would dissuade some of these attacks, Alternatively, if an attack does occur the additional officer would increase the odds in favor of the police and the survival rates of any wounded, I would like to see this change,

Jeb21 said:

As a society we can call for the return of police to peace officers instead of pseudo-soldiers. In the meantime, we have to realize that there are times when LEO can have a hair trigger. Guilt by association is a real thing so watch who you spend time with because they can get you killed.

I mentioned before I have watched a lot of dashboard cams as part of my job. In the last year or so I have also watched a lot of dash board cam and body cam videos on my own time of officers being shot/killed. The part that always amazes me is just how fast an encounter can go from peaceful to violent. Literally in a blink of an eye an officer goes from being upright to down and bleeding out. I am sure LEOs are seeing the same videos as part of their training, It must be very scary stuff to watch a fellow officer getting gunned down,

I really believe that if LEO went back to having a ride along partner it would make them a lot safer and would dissuade some of these attacks, Alternatively, if an attack does occur the additional officer would increase the odds in favor of the police and the survival rates of any wounded, I would like to see this change,

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One leo in a car is cheaper for the tax payers than 2 are. Cost benefits with the bean counters have them pushing just one cop per car.

FrommerStop said:

One leo in a car is cheaper for the tax payers than 2 are. Cost benefits with the bean counters have them pushing just one cop per car.

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All the money in the world isn't worth one life. I guess the best we can do is vote in sheriffs that actually believe in the protect and serve motto and not the militarization and war on drugs beliefs. Sad thing is, these elected officials that control all of these decisions, usually pander to the public on a war on drugs election front.

kidsoncoffee said:

All the money in the world isn't worth one life. I guess the best we can do is vote in sheriffs that actually believe in the protect and serve motto and not the militarization and war on drugs beliefs. Sad thing is, these elected officials that control all of these decisions, usually pander to the public on a war on drugs election front.

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In the real world that often is not true. Prior to Osha say about the 1950's the expected death rate on a major construction project was one dead per million spent. This was acceptable and I am sure that for more money some lives could have been saved.
If you ask the taxpayer to foot the bill through a vote, often they say no. For me fire protection is the most important emergency response that I want.
Property and money can be worth lives, even if most will not admit it. I am not saying this is right or wrong. It deserves a lot of thinking rather than a knee jerk reaction. People lost their lives in a revolutionary war against England over taxes in part. So people do find it worth while under some conditions to sacrifice their lives over financial concerns.

How many of you went from revolvers to pistols, to double stack pistols? From hunting shotgun to dedicated defense shotgun? From lever to bolt to semi auto, modern sporting rifles? Iron sights to scopes, lazers, dots, night vision and thermal? Had any training beyond basic hunter safety? Do you work to learn and apply better firearm handling and employment skills? Would you accept free training/equipment/gear in order to keep you own costs down? Do you wear a pressed shirt and trousers to the range/hunting or clothing that works better for that activity?

Congratulations: your "Militarized" too! Your primary gear for personal/home defense or hunting evolves with technology and your budget. Should LE be restricted to a Mdl 10 .38 Spl and a car with a single bubble light on the roof?

Historically, LE has been ill equipped unitl there is a major shocking deadly event, then they play catch up in both equipment and training. Are there any locations where terrorism, mass shootings, bombings, gang warefare, hostage and or barricade situations will never occur? We don't live in the idyllic time or place of Mayberry, I don't want that level of LE either.

There MUST BE checks and balances, oversight, proper and justfied employment, supervison, responsibility and accountability. The expectation is that all LE get it absolutely right 100% of the time. Human nature inherently includes mistakes, bad judgement and bad actions: its how these are handled that seperates good and evil, trust and loathing.

IMHO, the term LE militarization is used to in cite anger against a level of preparedness and capability. Similar to people that don't like cops until they need one. Events prove the necessity.

kidsoncoffee said:

All the money in the world isn't worth one life. I guess the best we can do is vote in sheriffs that actually believe in the protect and serve motto and not the militarization and war on drugs beliefs. Sad thing is, these elected officials that control all of these decisions, usually pander to the public on a war on drugs election front.

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Real World: Life is cheap, losses are acceptable and there are limitations on measures to protect life.

Another plug against LE drug enforcement, maybe you will consider opening a Thread?

"Congratulations: your "Militarized" too!"

Last I checked I didn't have full auto weapons, tear gas, and light armored vehicles in my gun safe. Who knows, maybe the gun fairy dropped some off and didn't tell me.

"Real World: Life is cheap, losses are acceptable and there are limitations on measures to protect life.
Another plug against LE drug enforcement, maybe you will consider opening a Thread?"

No need to when we're already on the discussion of what/why these cops are kicking in doors. So the populace is just supposed to accept that ill trained cops kill people and we're OK with that? Sorry but if you're carrying a gun and have the authority to end a life, you should be held to a higher standard. Fucks sake our military has more stringent rules for engagement.

Law enforcement today puts up with a lot of garbage. There’s not the respect shown for them that there once was.
A lot of times we only see the end of the video, not what led up to the violence.
I’m not saying that hitting or kicking a man when he’s down is right, I’m just saying that cops are human and their emotions can sometimes get the better of them.
With all the violence against cops today, I know that I would be on high alert every minute of the day. I would not want their job and I doubt most people would.
Maybe if some of these people would act respectful and do what they are told when they encounter police, there wouldn’t be as many violent encounters.
It’s easy to sit back and critique after the fact but at the time cops don’t know if they are dealing with a shoplifter or a serial killer.
They have to err on the side of caution.

kidsoncoffee said:

"...maybe you will consider opening a Thread?"

No need to when we're already on the discussion of what/why these cops are kicking in doors...

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Actually, this thread is supposed to be about what a civilian can/should do if the situation happens to them. An in-the-moment kind of scenario. "Shit gets real at 0200, what do you do?" kind of thread.

NOT a blame game, and NOT a how/why LEO might've made a mistake kind of thread.

I specifically clarified that with the OP in the second post of this thread.