Friendly Fire - LEO shooting the good guys. How to prevent?

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  • Luv2Hunt

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    I am a veteran police officer for somewhere around 30 years of service in the Military Police, Florida Deputy Sheriff, Florida Police Officer, Alabama Police Officer, and now a federal Police Officer. Aside from my time in Desert Shield/Desert Storm I have never carried a full auto firearm or driven in a light or heavy armored vehicle.
    Our training is constant and have incredibly tough standards to work under. We are probably the only persons on this earth who are willing to put our lives on the line to protect people who love and hate us, people we do not even know.
    To anyone who is not and has not been a law enforcement officer personally I beg you and challenge you to do your own independent investigation into any case involving a Law Enforcement Officer before spreading hate and discontent about that situation.

    I have seen first hand and been a personal victim of "news agencies". I have listened to television broadcasts and read newspaper articles about cases I was personally involved in and seen that the "news" being reported was very creatively edited or outright wrong. News agencies are not interested in the truth, only money in sales of papers or advertising and in ratings. Please check into the "stories" you hear for yourself, and facebook or "news" stations are not realistic investigative tools. Usually police reports and court documents are available to the public.

    Now back to the original question. My best advise is this: if you call law enforcement to your location then please be unarmed and cooperative when they arrive.
    Most times the first law enforcement to arrive will be in a fully marked patrol vehicle with both lights and sirens blaring so you should know who they are. They do not know who you are. I advise to be unarmed and hands plainly visible from a long ways off. Being face down arms and legs spread is ideal. It may sound a little wrong or strange to you to do this but just because an Officer is willing to put his life on the line to save you he will do everything possible to avoid doing so.
     

    Jeb21

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    Another simple step we can take to avoid the "warrant served on the wrong address" scenario is to make sure that our address is plainly visible. I know that ambulance drivers really appreciate this when they are trying to quickly find the house of someone who is having a medial emergency.

    The issue about the militarization of the police officers is a difficult one for me. I believe, but I am not certain, that this transition from Adam -12 to Black-Ops, accelerated after 9/11. More federal money was allocated to assist local LEO agencies to buy better equipment. I understand and don't mind the fact that officers have high capacity handguns and M-4s in their squad car. Certainly, the attack of officers last year in Dallas by that sniper shows the dangers of officers being outgunned by an assailant.

    My concern is the mindset of the officer in the encounter, and this is where I have the conflicting opinions. I believe officers are being taught that they must be the alpha in any encounter. They most control the situation or the situation will get out of control. This can sometimes lead to an escalation to violence that might have been avoided. This can lead to children being shot because they have a BB gun or similar such tragedies. Having said that, it may very well be true that officers need to take that alpha approach in order to do their job and to stay alive. I further believe that LEO spend 90% of their time dealing with the worse 10% of the population which can naturally put LEO on edge and can make them extremely cynical.

    I do wonder if we could modify the training a bit away from the "shoot first or die" mentality to a slightly lower level and still not jeopardize officer safety. I watched a video recently of British LEO dealing with a machete wielding man, who was probably suffering from mental illness and was trying to achieve the suicide by cop end to his pain. The Bobbies had clear circular riot shields, they surrounded him and then with their shields, they pinned and subdued him. I compare this to the one of many videos I have seen of US LEO dealing with a similar situation. They typically taser the suspect and if this does not work they shoot him.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mzPj_IaMzY UK incident


    Here is an incident in the US where a single police officer showed amazing restrained when confronted with a suicidal homicide suspect wielding a knife. I really think a second officer may have prevented this shooting from ever happening. I still think the officer did extremely well under the circumstances.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPj0C1q0F-g



    Here is a gun encounter here in Escambia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWg4Y-2-VAo


    Here is a video of a New Zealand police officer dealing with a dangerous suspect

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJUVmPGCv-s

    LOL New Zealand
     
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    Another simple step we can take to avoid the "warrant served on the wrong address" scenario is to make sure that our address is plainly visible.

    This is excellent advice.
    I had an ambulance stop at my next door neighbors house a couple years back, I walked over because I knew the mom wasn’t home, they were looking for someone having a heart attack. I asked the persons name and they couldn’t or wouldn’t tell me, they stated an address but it was odd, my side of the street are even numbers. Turns out the neighbor on the other side of me had called for her mother. At the time no one had addresses on the side of their house, I have since put them on mine.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Mouser

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    Humans are fallable. A home is a place nobody but the owners have a right to enter...hence, if under a warrant, an agency is going to forcibly enter another's home, even a potential criminal, the burden for properly securing the safety of all involved rests squarely on the institution initiating the intrusion...it can be no others...if more than one person is responsible, no persons are responsible.

    In the private sector, when a potentially hazardous situation arises, it is leadership's responsibility to maintain and enforce the systems and protocol necessary to ensure safety and it is the individual doing the hazardous job to follow them to the tee...it can be no others responsibility, and the rules of engagement must be clear as should be the consequences for not following them....follow orders from the police is the citizens responsibility and breaking into the correct home is the police's responsibility...as are the consequences for effing that up. there is no excuse for breaking into the wrong house...ever! I think one person mentioned serving a warrant via dispatcher...if that happens, I wouldn't know, then that would be clear evidence to me that the agency is waaay too casual though I think most of the real dangerous raids are carried out with great planning.

    Now to the tactics used in these raids...I have very strong opinions....there is a certain guitar manufacturer in the mid south that endured armed raids into its manufacturing facility by heavily armed and armored police...this is pure BS and I felt a political stunt meant to intimidate...all over allegations that they were using illegally harvest Macasar Ebony from India...the Lacy act I believe. The police state is real and the lives of civilians must always be protected...always.

    Our court/legal system is set up in a way to ensure innocent people don't go to jail even if that means guilty people sometimes go free...still, mistake are made. I think these mistakes are exceedingly rare, but it doesn't matter to the individual or the family how rare they are if they are a victim of this sort of mistake...each person has a role to play, and individually them must be accountable. Auditing by a governing agency is one common way to ensure compliance...clear and consistent consequences help with ensuring accountability and negating short cuts but in the end, it is the guy making the intrusion who must be accountable to his actions...the homeowner who was awoken at 3am is not...though they will be the loser of any armed altercation. In this day of information, GPS, surveillance etc...there is no reasonable excuse for entering the wrong house...ever! It must be that way or innocent people will be hurt as well as the officers involved...though the officer's safety is secondary to the homeowner due to the nature of the invasion...neither need be sacrificed nor should we ever accept anything but perfection....to do so would be...well criminal.
     

    S_SHELL

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    Another simple step we can take to avoid the "warrant served on the wrong address" scenario is to make sure that our address is plainly visible.

    this absolutely makes any first responders life easier
     

    wildrider666

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    The "Value" of an Officers life is no greater nor less then that of those they encounter (GGs or BGs): actions determine outcomes. Just because officers accept the inherent risks associated with the profession; does not lessen the value of their lives. Personal opinions may vary but there's no official document or Judicial decision that places the value of a officers life as "secondary". Officers often make choices that place the lives of others ahead of their own.
     

    FrommerStop

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    The "Value" of an Officers life is no greater nor less then that of those they encounter (GGs or BGs): actions determine outcomes. Just because officers accept the inherent risks associated with the profession; does not lessen the value of their lives. Personal opinions may vary but there's no official document or Judicial decision that places the value of a officers life as "secondary". Officers often make choices that place the lives of others ahead of their own.
    Legally we may be all equal relative to the values of our lives. but, I am not sure since I do not know federal or state law that well. Legally I judge life's value on the penalty for illegally killing a human and also the vigor with which the case will be pursued. To give an idea of the vigor that the case will be pursued, years ago in chicago someone was relating how a LEO fall down while chasing a suspect and the call went out officer down. The entire local police station was said to have emptied in a few moments when that call went out. Also, Cop killers traditionally got death in most places for a sentence.
     

    IronBeard

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    No matter what side you are on, it's "us vs. them." Each side keeps trying to one-up the other, and that results in "preemptive strikes" at 0300, or overkill, however you want to see it, again on both sides so the escalation continues. Cops wanna end things quickly and go home. Bad guys know you're coming hard so they are ready to hit harder when you arrive. Law-abiding people are caught in the middle, through the tendency to error on the side of caution, for officer safety, etc., they are viewed as potential threats, too until there is sufficient reason to deem them no threat. In all honesty, and just me personally, I believe local LE are more of a danger to me than any local criminal element I've encountered/experienced. That probably hurts someone's feelings, and I'm not singling anyone out, it just is what it is; a fact of life for me. How do I deal with that? Minimize or avoid contact.
     

    FrommerStop

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    No matter what side you are on, it's "us vs. them." Each side keeps trying to one-up the other, and that results in "preemptive strikes" at 0300, or overkill, however you want to see it, again on both sides so the escalation continues. Cops wanna end things quickly and go home. Bad guys know you're coming hard so they are ready to hit harder when you arrive. Law-abiding people are caught in the middle, through the tendency to error on the side of caution, for officer safety, etc., they are viewed as potential threats, too until there is sufficient reason to deem them no threat. In all honesty, and just me personally, I believe local LE are more of a danger to me than any local criminal element I've encountered/experienced. That probably hurts someone's feelings, and I'm not singling anyone out, it just is what it is; a fact of life for me. How do I deal with that? Minimize or avoid contact.
    That is the real issue that is being discussed. If meeting LEOs present a danger, then do what is needed to avoid contact. Having anything in your hand while meeting an LEO could provoke a deadly attack. I guess one could practice complying with potential commands like the cases below where officers shot and killed unarmed suspects for not complying with commands. Tactically there was the tiniest threat perceived by the LEOs and so when in doubt and fear shoot.



     

    Droshki

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    That is the real issue that is being discussed. If meeting LEOs present a danger, then do what is needed to avoid contact. Having anything in your hand while meeting an LEO could provoke a deadly attack. I guess one could practice complying with potential commands like the cases below where officers shot and killed unarmed suspects for not complying with commands. Tactically there was the tiniest threat perceived by the LEOs and so when in doubt and fear shoot.





    That top one was especially hard to watch. This is the case where "Inscribed on the dust cover of Brailsford's AR-15 patrol rifle were the words "You're f----ed"" which to me, doesn't necessarily indicate the proper mindset to be a police officer. My understanding is that they were here to "Protect and Serve", not "F--- people". Luckily for him, the judge ruled this little tidbit inadmissible at his murder trial.


    As you watch, you see he screams conflicting instructions at the victim. HANDS IN THE AIR. CRAWL TOWARDS ME. Can't do both now, can ya? One precludes the other. Its no wonder the guy finally slipped up in the this fatal game of "Simon Says". It was only a matter of time.
     

    FrommerStop

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    The officer that fired the shot
    0202122-46.jpg
    His rifle

    y1hwuerbumt01.jpg

    That top one was especially hard to watch. This is the case where "Inscribed on the dust cover of Brailsford's AR-15 patrol rifle were the words "You're f----ed"" which to me, doesn't necessarily indicate the proper mindset to be a police officer. My understanding is that they were here to "Protect and Serve", not "F--- people". Luckily for him, the judge ruled this little tidbit inadmissible at his murder trial.


    As you watch, you see he screams conflicting instructions at the victim. HANDS IN THE AIR. CRAWL TOWARDS ME. Can't do both now, can ya? One precludes the other. Its no wonder the guy finally slipped up in the this fatal game of "Simon Says". It was only a matter of time.
     

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    Droshki

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    Yup. Thanks. Forgot about that aspect. Dude was a damn time bomb.
     

    oneshot

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    If you had a good ccw class what to do and how to handle a situation. would have been one of the things covered , to meanly people want a quite fix to get a ccw permit, I get people all the time call and want to do a class, when I tell them it is all day, they will say, The gun show is only 2 hrs, or so-so is only 4 hrs, or you are to far, I do a lot of live firing, hands on, not video, this is the way you learn. Can't do this at the places in town. They will pay more for less then less for more just for a quick fix. And then complain. Learning these things will help with dealing with the offices like this, and they are out there and there are also some good ones out there. Just my 50 cents jj
     

    FrommerStop

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    If you had a good ccw class what to do and how to handle a situation. would have been one of the things covered , to meanly people want a quite fix to get a ccw permit, I get people all the time call and want to do a class, when I tell them it is all day, they will say, The gun show is only 2 hrs, or so-so is only 4 hrs, or you are to far, I do a lot of live firing, hands on, not video, this is the way you learn. Can't do this at the places in town. They will pay more for less then less for more just for a quick fix. And then complain. Learning these things will help with dealing with the offices like this, and they are out there and there are also some good ones out there. Just my 50 cents jj
    Obviously the best answer is not to get drunk and allow a pellet rifle to be seen by other guests. But afterward when the cops arrive. What do you suggest? Me fall forward with hands extended and do not move. The entire issue to the cops was if near the shooter there could have been another person in concealment that could have could have shot them if they went forward to handcuff the drunken idiot. In cases like that laying absolutely still and not moving 'might' have saved his life. The other cops there did not fire. The only LEO there that said he would of fired was the idiot Sgt giving the commands. 4 months later that Sgt retired to the Philippines. Sgt said he did not fire due to the LEO that fired was blocking his line of fire. Five shots were fired from an AR-15.
     

    wildrider666

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    I don't have a "side" that is blindly supported. I do support right over wrong and Legal determinations that classify each on its own facts.
    A "us verse them" statement is unclear. If one side is LE, are innocent civs and criminals on the other? Maybe innocent civs verses LE/criminals? LE/innocent civs verses criminals is the only one I find acceptable. Know that LE and civs can and do become criminals when their actions become unlawful.

    All encompassing labels often are erroneous. Do we like when others (them) group mass shooters with firearms owners (us) and attack our Rights and threaten the possession of our property?

    On top vid: Subject reached behind his body. No part of the instructions allowed that movement and he was clearly warned his improper/threatening actions could lead to being shot. People scream "subjects were unarmed" but that fact is unknown to the officers: it has no bearing on the event at the time the subjects were shot. The Court aquitted the officer using the facts that lead to the shooting. We often talk about situational awareness and our perceptions of threats. Yet, some people don't want to allow officers to have that very same justifications. Who writes and actually will conduct themselves as stated: "better judged by twelve then carried by six".

    Bottom vid didn't run through the moment of the shot (s). As such, I don't have adequate information for an opinion.

    IMHO, Respectfully.
     

    wildrider666

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    Dust cover with YOU'RE FUCKED". Shall we all be judged by everything printed on our Tee shirts/hats and all posted comments taken literally? Lol. We've discussed that particular dust cover before. Not a good idea on primary firearm for the exact same perceptions that could be concluded. At the end of the day its moot.

    Rehash displeasure with the verdict but it still changes nothing. There are some Rulings during Cases and Verdicts from Cases that I don't agree with but I wasn't in the Courtroom full time and accept what is decided. Add Appeals and SCOTUS as applicable.
     

    FLT

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    This is easy for me , I don't have to pick sides, everyone should be held accountable for their actions. A persons chosen profession should make them no more or no less accountable. If that were the case this kind of thing would occur a lot less often.
     
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