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Friendly Fire - LEO shooting the good guys. How to prevent?

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  • TK5o

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    Lets throw another wrench in here. The suspect that was hit by a police car was a fleeing felon. I dont know about Georgia, but in Florida state law says fleeing felons can be shot. Although department or agency policy may restrict that to tighter standards the actual law does not. So would you rather that have been the outcome? All this scrutiny over split second life or death decisions while balancing: state law, department policy, training, past experience, knowledge or lack of knowledge of ongoing incident and ect.
     

    Jeb21

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    Thanks guys, I could not tell from the video when the weapon discharged. On a positive note, when the FBI fires him, he can always get a gig as a back up dancer.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Lets throw another wrench in here. The suspect that was hit by a police car was a fleeing felon. I dont know about Georgia, but in Florida state law says fleeing felons can be shot. Although department or agency policy may restrict that to tighter standards the actual law does not. So would you rather that have been the outcome? All this scrutiny over split second life or death decisions while balancing: state law, department policy, training, past experience, knowledge or lack of knowledge of ongoing incident and ect.
    I believe it has to be a forcible felony that includes most street crimes for the officer to shoot a fleeing suspect, but I am not sure.
    Forcible felony: means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb
     
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    Droshki

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    ACCPD spokesman says after Police Chief reviewed everything he determined policies and procedures were not followed.
    The Georgia Bureau of Investigation will conduct an investigation to determine whether Saulters will be criminally charged, the police department said
    .

    Those quotes, and the fact that the individual had less than one year job experience, leads me to believe that he was not the best qualified candidate for any open police position anywhere. There are undoubtedly other candidates for that position that have not been previously terminated for violations of policies and procedures in a similar position.

    Also, anyone that is the subject of an open GBI investigation, is probably not your best qualified candidate either.
     

    Jeb21

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    Lets throw another wrench in here. The suspect that was hit by a police car was a fleeing felon. I dont know about Georgia, but in Florida state law says fleeing felons can be shot. Although department or agency policy may restrict that to tighter standards the actual law does not. So would you rather that have been the outcome? All this scrutiny over split second life or death decisions while balancing: state law, department policy, training, past experience, knowledge or lack of knowledge of ongoing incident and ect.

    Good questions, but apparently he was fired for this incident. This suggest that his agency felt that he used excessive force given the circumstances. I am just suggesting that at his new job he might need to be evaluated to see if he has a propensity to use excessive violence.
     

    Droshki

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    The suspect was, in my understanding, being pursued for a probation violation of a non-violent drug conviction.

    This sort of thing is easily handled by getting an arrest warrant and serving it at his place of residence at 3 AM. Pretty east stuff- I've seen it done.
     

    wildrider666

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    "ND" By dancing FBI Agent in Club video at Link. The term dumbass comes to mind but that doesn't cover potential ramifications with employment, criminal and civil action.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8WgxUoky4kg

    Regarding the officer use of vehicle to stop fleeing suspect being fired, I think its B.S. similar actions have happened before. The story is blown out of proportion. Suspect was not "run-over", suspect is running at a intersecting angle to the Patrol Car and collided with it. Many of the videos that are attempting to incite public outrage cut the video before it shows the suspect continuing to resistant while on the ground. Did running suspect receive injuries that would exceed those he would have received if "tackled, tazzed or knocked down by baton while running on the asphalt"? If not, how can it be an "excessive use of Force" ? There was a legitimate law enforcement objective to stop the suspect! Surely the fired officer could fight the termination (he could still persue it) but why stay with a Dept that makes decisions on what the media public thinks instead of use of force standards.

    I've got absolutely no problems with the method/force employed based on the effective results. Obviously, the PD that hired the officer so soon thinks the same thing. Not log ago, this vid would have been sensationalized in the News as a unique apprehension but not derogatory in any sense. Whats changed? Media spin that fosters and encourages the hate towards LE. IMHO
     

    Luv2Hunt

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    The suspect was, in my understanding, being pursued for a probation violation of a non-violent drug conviction.

    This sort of thing is easily handled by getting an arrest warrant and serving it at his place of residence at 3 AM. Pretty east stuff- I've seen it done.

    They were trying to serve a warrant that already existed and it was a felony warrant. The fired Officer already knew of the warrant so it seems likely he had tried to serve it in the past. So obviously it is not as easy as get a warrant and serve it. Wanted felons run from their house just as quick at 3:00 am as in daylight hours in the middle of the street, I've been the one chasing the wanted felon so I've seen it.
    The Officer took a course of action that got him fired from his law Enforcement job after a seemingly record short investigation during a public execution by the press. He lost his vacation time, sick time, seniority, has to go through another field training program, back on probation, and constantly scrutinized by the press, fellow workers, and supervisors. Not "let off the hook" as everyone seems to portray. He has learned a tough lesson early in his career that I guarantee he will never forget.
     

    kidsoncoffee

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    What gun did he own that discharged when dropped. Wait I know, a Sig 320 :) Seriously, though does anyone know what weapon he was carrying when he decided to bust a move.

    Don't you know the sigs are designed that way so that you can throw them around corners to take out the bad guys?! It will fire multiple shots if you give it a good spin like a ninja star.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Don't you know the sigs are designed that way so that you can throw them around corners to take out the bad guys?! It will fire multiple shots if you give it a good spin like a ninja star.
    See shotgun shoot over corner at 0.13
     

    MAXman

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    The suspect was, in my understanding, being pursued for a probation violation of a non-violent drug conviction.

    This sort of thing is easily handled by getting an arrest warrant and serving it at his place of residence at 3 AM. Pretty east stuff- I've seen it done.

    So long as they get the address right, nah-saying!?!?

    Wild rider, the use of force isn’t what injuries he did sustain, but the likely injuries he could sustain given the level of force used.
    Okay he got away with some bumps and bruises. But that’s like if some guy balls his fist at me and i shoot him. But it only grazed his arm, he didn’t even need stitches! But that’s not the point, a firearm is a deadly weapon. So are vehicles.
    I’ll go ahead and preempt here and say yes, someone can have an allergic reaction to pepper spray, or a taser can stop a heart, and the right blow from an asp can kill a man. But those are not likely too happen, especially when they’re employed correctly.

    If an officer would be unjustified in firing his weapon, then he’s unjustified in using the vehicle(hitch is too say, sometimes vehicles are justified).


    As far as the fed lighting a round after his backflip, well,
    I doubt I’d get away with no charges if I managed that stunt. Dude didn’t even check too see if someone was hit first, just put it away and did that bs”my bad” move as he walked away. Reminds me of the dump truck that plowed a impala through an intersection a couple years ago. Driver got out and checked the bumper of his truck, swore, fished out his phone before he even considered to check the other driver.
     

    FrommerStop

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    So long as they get the address right, nah-saying!?!?

    Wild rider, the use of force isn’t what injuries he did sustain, but the likely injuries he could sustain given the level of force used.
    Okay he got away with some bumps and bruises. But that’s like if some guy balls his fist at me and i shoot him. But it only grazed his arm, he didn’t even need stitches! But that’s not the point, a firearm is a deadly weapon. So are vehicles.
    I’ll go ahead and preempt here and say yes, someone can have an allergic reaction to pepper spray, or a taser can stop a heart, and the right blow from an asp can kill a man. But those are not likely too happen, especially when they’re employed correctly.

    If an officer would be unjustified in firing his weapon, then he’s unjustified in using the vehicle(hitch is too say, sometimes vehicles are justified).


    As far as the fed lighting a round after his backflip, well,
    I doubt I’d get away with no charges if I managed that stunt. Dude didn’t even check too see if someone was hit first, just put it away and did that bs”my bad” move as he walked away. Reminds me of the dump truck that plowed a impala through an intersection a couple years ago. Driver got out and checked the bumper of his truck, swore, fished out his phone before he even considered to check the other driver.
    A few years there was a case in Pensacola. IIRC some fleeing on a bike and the patrol car ran over him.
    Pensacola cop ran over, killed man during chase, witnesses say
    Published on Oct. 3, 2009 in the Pensacola News Journal http://www.kriswernowsky.com/victor-steen-death/
     

    wildrider666

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    I don't want to derail the OPs Topic so I'll wait for GBIs results and what if anything follows.
     

    MAXman

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    Yeah I considered bringing it up but it’s a little apples and oranges I think. I can’t expect someone to outrun a bike on foot, he did try the tazer(for better or worse), and the officer said it was purely accident.
    It was a shitty situation and horrible outcome, but I see it more as less use of force and more should he had continues pursuit. And I understand escambia enacted a couple new policies because of it.
     

    MAXman

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    I don't want to derail the OPs Topic so I'll wait for GBIs results and what if anything follows.

    Yeah 12 pages and we are still playing nice, though ad/nd(if we even believe in accidental, because I know at least a few here don’t) I think are just as likely as a friendly fire incident.


    Feel free to pm me if it’s in response too mine.
     

    Jeb21

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    So long as they get the address right, nah-saying!?!?

    Wild rider, the use of force isn’t what injuries he did sustain, but the likely injuries he could sustain given the level of force used.
    Okay he got away with some bumps and bruises. But that’s like if some guy balls his fist at me and i shoot him. But it only grazed his arm, he didn’t even need stitches! But that’s not the point, a firearm is a deadly weapon. So are vehicles.
    I’ll go ahead and preempt here and say yes, someone can have an allergic reaction to pepper spray, or a taser can stop a heart, and the right blow from an asp can kill a man. But those are not likely too happen, especially when they’re employed correctly.

    If an officer would be unjustified in firing his weapon, then he’s unjustified in using the vehicle(hitch is too say, sometimes vehicles are justified).


    As far as the fed lighting a round after his backflip, well,
    I doubt I’d get away with no charges if I managed that stunt. Dude didn’t even check too see if someone was hit first, just put it away and did that bs”my bad” move as he walked away. Reminds me of the dump truck that plowed a impala through an intersection a couple years ago. Driver got out and checked the bumper of his truck, swore, fished out his phone before he even considered to check the other driver.

    Excellent points.

    One result of the numerous shootings of unarmed men by police officers is the negative public view of officers now. Before, if an officer used force the initial response from the majority of folks was that the force must have been justified. Now I believe we are much more willing to believe that the officer crossed the line. The police no longer get the benefit of the doubt in the public's view.
     

    Jeb21

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    I don't want to derail the OPs Topic so I'll wait for GBIs results and what if anything follows.

    Thanks for the concern, but I am fine with discussing the cop car incident to the extent folks want to. I was especially impressed with Maxman's comments. I mean where did a Marine learn to write in complete sentences? :) What is next, Gorilla's writing Shakespeare?

    It really must be hard for LEO right now. Every suspect is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Cell phone video are everywhere. Bodycams are mandatory (though I think these can actual help to clear an officer of wrongdoing). Oh and by the way please continue your primary role of protecting and serving the public. Finally, we have the rash of revenge killings of LEO by folks who have decided, for whatever the reason, that cops are bad and need to die because of something that another LEO did in a different state weeks or months ago. Talk about being on an island surrounded by a sea of woe.
     
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