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National anthem debate

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    fl57caveman

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    gonna find some popcorn....I sense a case of butt hurt coming on..




    aren't soldiers required to stand for the playing of the national anthem while on duty, or in uniform?
    every soldier , on every base I have been on, and there have been dozens and dozens, when the flag was raised in the morning, stopped and turned to the sound..


    and, if as a condition of employment,
    if wearing a hair net is required for working near food at waffle house, I am kind of thinking you wear one if you want to cook there..

    end of story, the man who signs the check dictates the terms, right?
     
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    pcolapaddler

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    Kind of funny. When I first heard of the kneeling - last year sometime - I didn't know why it was being done. I thought the kneelers were trying to show respect to someone or something.

    I've thought about out a bit more and wonder if these guys have really thought it through.

    Kneeling, as far as I know, has historically been associated with reverence and/or a subservient attitude.

    People kneel when they pray to show reverence for God. When someone entered the presence of the king they would bow and/or kneel in recognition of the king's authority and their position as the king's servant.

    I guess this is what confused me when I first heard of the practice.

    Sent from an unnamed device running an undisclosed OS via a third party application.
     

    fl57caveman

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    as a statement of freedom, as a freeman in the still freest nation in the world, I stand to showcase that, americans stand from pride, to show they kneel to no man, and kneel only to God.

    part of the creed, die on your feet, facing the enemy , not kneeling on your knees, die with a wound in the front, not the back.. like the ancient warriors.
     

    wildrider666

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    I did 30 years and retired a few years ago. While I don't see a reason to kneel during the anthem, I always stood because I felt it was the right thing to do. If someone decided not to stand, it is a right granted in the greatest country in the world. The thought of forcing someone to perform a patriotic act just seems un-American.

    ^^^^^ This from a Marine MGYSGT (Ret). Very disappointing that political leanings displaced what you praticed during your career. You may have felt it was the right thing to do but you know full well its actually mandatory under all routine circumstances. You did not answer the "in the Marines" question correctly. I'll set this straight:
    All military service members in Uniform must render a appropriate Salute or action based on being solo, in a group or military formation. If they are in PT or civilian attire they must also stand at attention. Some People may recall the female Sailor at P'Cola in civies making a Youtube vid of her attempt at a discreet sit down/ fist up protest during Colors. Her Security Clearance was revoked, she could not work in her Reservist NEC (job) so was assigned various tasks at a motor pool. She also lost her civilian job with a Contractor due to the revoked Security Clearance.

    What if I told you their action are not intended to dishonor anybody or this country! Never has any player ever said differently. I served so that people have the right to protest what they perceive as an injustice. I certainly didn't serve to establish mandatory patriotic displays if ones heart is not there. This action has been hi-jacked into something other than its initial intent.

    If your defending what is/is not intended you must also weigh what is/is not perceived with equal fairness. Even when actions are clearly explained, they can still be unacceptable to the public due to there method of delivery. Same applies to blocking roads, shutting down business/events and riots.

    "Having Served" in the Military has absolutely no impact on an employers work expections nor does it allow employees to lawfully protest anything they want to while on the Clock without ramifications. Your statements continue to misrepresent On Duty limitations with Off Duty liberties. People can protest while at work but at their own peril if not condoned; again that deals with employer discretion/tolerance not Constitutional Rights. Peril in this NFL discussion equals a Fine unless that player is also a no talent bum that gets released and carries so much "baggage" no other Team will sign him.
     
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    IronBeard

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    So, for me it's pretty cut and dried. I am all about freedom of speech, and am pretty lenient on that. But things went wrong when a group of players decided they would make a racial statement while everyone else stood in reverence and our national anthem played. Plain and simple, they could have made their statement at a better time and with just as much impact, but they chose to use this moment of stadium-wide silence and reverence to make their own selfish, personal statements. If they are the men they claim to be, own it. I had lost interest in the NFL long before this happened, this event did not bring me back, and I doubt there is anything the NFL is willing to do that will bring me back. But, people and players are free to say what they please, and I am free not to watch the NFL.
     

    MAXman

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    1: I think it’s funny that the NFL has guys knock each other retarded, first denies it, then accepts it but then creates BS rules to receive compensation. Yet no one gives a flip about that. I’ve seen the short and mid term affects of TBI, so I have no joy watching people incur them(again).

    2: Yes Marines are required to stand at attention during the national anthem, unless in a uniform that requires a head covering: then you salute. No, it’s not optional. In fact, every ceremony I was a part of they had a prayer portion, where we were instructed to bow our head(“every last one of you, or I swear to god.. don’t bow and see what happens”). Sounds great, unless your not *whatever religion the chaplain is*.
    And? So what? I don’t hold anyone outside of active duty Marines to the standards and expectations of the Marines Corps, and no one should. Want me too list some of the other requirements to make my point?

    3: It doesn’t matter if they are, or are not disrespecting the military, it’s soldiers, fallen members, our constitution, what it stands for, Apple pie,
    Why they kneel has no bearing on if they should be allowed too or not. If you can’t wrap your head around that, perhaps refrain from discussions on free speech, freedom of religion, right to bear arms, I mean basically any right that is universally applied as apposed to privileges we grant to people we like.

    4: of course trump wants to deport people who kneel. He wants to deport everyone he doesn’t like. How is this a surprise, he campaigned on that promise.

    5: In fact the city and police department of Charlottesville tried to stop that “rally”, and then tried to move it out of the city square.

    6: people disrespect our flag, our anthem, our military, our constitution and what it stands for. Every day. For any, all, or no reason. Why you guys get so wrapped up when you think a football player does it, unless it’s because you actually see it? I guess ignorance is bliss.
     

    FLT

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    1: I think it’s funny that the NFL has guys knock each other retarded, first denies it, then accepts it but then creates BS rules to receive compensation. Yet no one gives a flip about that. I’ve seen the short and mid term affects of TBI, so I have no joy watching people incur them(again).

    2: Yes Marines are required to stand at attention during the national anthem, unless in a uniform that requires a head covering: then you salute. No, it’s not optional. In fact, every ceremony I was a part of they had a prayer portion, where we were instructed to bow our head(“every last one of you, or I swear to god.. don’t bow and see what happens”). Sounds great, unless your not *whatever religion the chaplain is*.
    And? So what? I don’t hold anyone outside of active duty Marines to the standards and expectations of the Marines Corps, and no one should. Want me too list some of the other requirements to make my point?

    3: It doesn’t matter if they are, or are not disrespecting the military, it’s soldiers, fallen members, our constitution, what it stands for, Apple pie,
    Why they kneel has no bearing on if they should be allowed too or not. If you can’t wrap your head around that, perhaps refrain from discussions on free speech, freedom of religion, right to bear arms, I mean basically any right that is universally applied as apposed to privileges we grant to people we like.

    4: of course trump wants to deport people who kneel. He wants to deport everyone he doesn’t like. How is this a surprise, he campaigned on that promise.

    5: In fact the city and police department of Charlottesville tried to stop that “rally”, and then tried to move it out of the city square.

    6: people disrespect our flag, our anthem, our military, our constitution and what it stands for. Every day. For any, all, or no reason. Why you guys get so wrapped up when you think a football player does it, unless it’s because you actually see it? I guess ignorance is bliss.
    Thanks for clearing up your opinion of what is acceptable behavior.
     

    Zeroed in

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    What if I told you their action are not intended to dishonor anybody or this country! Never has any player ever said differently. I served so that people have the right to protest what they perceive as an injustice. I certainly didn't serve to establish mandatory patriotic displays if ones heart is not there. This action has been hi-jacked into something other than its initial intent.[/QUOTE

    It'd probably be the same IF I told you to Go Fuck Yourself. You have your "glorified saints" to enlist in the US Military, and do a few+ tours, and then see if they wanna kneel again. Of course they won't enlist, they are a bunch of over-paid pricks who think their shit doesn't stink.
    And since that will never happen, I have sworn off ALL FOOTBALL and related Memorabilia.
    I have served too, and it damn sure wasn't to protect POS's to dump on America. In my opinion, they are our enemies. No different from a cult.
    It may have not been their "intent" in the beginning, But it sure is now. They know how Americans feel about it, but they still do it. Even their F-up'd owners who say they will pay the fine, if any of them want to kneel. That is an absolute slap in the face of All our American Soldiers who have served and are serving.
    I bet if the fine was 10 million per person per minute during the National Anthem, it wouldn't take too long before it stopped.
    I'm all for Freedom of Speech, but not when you shit on your Country doing so.

    Have a nice day.
     
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    Droshki

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    It'd probably be the same IF I told you to Go Fuck Yourself........

    Have a nice day.

    huh...

    There will be zero tolerance for personal attacks, this is a forum intended for "Respectful dialogue for firearms enthusiasts" not a soapbox for anyone's personal agenda. State your opinions, respectfully, and respond to others, respectfully, and there won't be any issues.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    With all due respect, he did say "IF"...

    How about we all focus on what tomorrow is all about: remembering the Fallen, who gave their lives for this Country.

    If some misguided overpaid dirtbag wants to piss on that memory, they have the right. The rest of us also have the right to be vocal about how infuriating and ironic that disrespect really is...

    Fuck the NFL.

    God Bless America.
     

    Droshki

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    Really? Grow up.

    Really? How about kindly skipping the personal attacks and insults against other forum members, following the guidelines promulgated by the forum founder, and confining your comments to the topic at hand? I and many others would sincerely be interested in your personal viewpoints on the original topic, and be willing to give them proper "grown up" weight and consideration based on their inherent intellectual value, but not at the expense of attacks on other forum members. Is this fair enough?

    Disagreement with others in a semi-political thread is expected. Common courtesy and respect for other members is also expected.
     

    Jeb21

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    No one wants to talk about the fact that unarmed black boys and men are being shot on a regular basis by LEOs. That is the reason the NFL players started kneeling. Colin Kapernic (sp?)had been talking about this issue for a while but no press on it all UNTIL he started kneeling. Unfortunately, now all anyone wants to talk about is the kneeling and not the reason he and they are kneeling.

    This reminds me of my puppy I will point at a ball and tell her to fetch. Instead of looking at what I am pointing at, my puppy will simply look at my hand. We should all strive to be smarter than my puppy(because we will not be cuter) and look at the reason for the kneeling and not the fact that they are kneeling.

    BTW, most of these overpaid athletes do help their communities through charities. The kneeling on the field is just their most nationally public action that they take but they do give back big time to the local communities.
    Below is just one of many articles about this.
    https://www.sbnation.com/2017/9/29/...-hurricane-harvey-patrick-peterson-foundation
     

    Jeb21

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    One last thing that angers me about the owners Players are punished for off the field actions because they are "role models". However, when these players do take a very public position about a real problem of black American being shot and killed for no legal reason, they get called SOB by the President of the United States and threatened with fines by the NFL owners. How hypocritical.

    Another thing, if the first player to kneel was Payton Manning or Tom Brady or Drew Breeze do you think there would have been such a outcry against their actions.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    ...Another thing, if the first player to kneel was Payton Manning or Tom Brady or Drew Breeze do you think there would have been such a outcry against their actions.

    YES.

    You wanna talk about "why" they kneel during the Anthem? You. Just. Did:

    They do it for the ATTENTION.

    Apparently Mr. Colon Kanbuttlick wasn't getting enough, so he decided to do something so outrageous that it would get people talking. And now you want to talk about it? Fine. LEOs shooting innocent people is bad. Thugs and degenerates attacking innocent LEOs is bad. All agreed? Moving on...

    Your analogy of your puppy is wrong. First of all, your puppy doesn't speak English. It looks at your hand because that's attached to your moving arm, and You. If you want it to focus on the ball, then pick. Up. The ball. Get its attention, and then go from there. Make the ball exciting. Play tug with it. Then drop it in front of you, and praise the pup when it grabs it. Then do it some more, and drop it a bit further away, or move further back. When the pup moves towards you, say "Fetch" and praise it some more. More play. More excitement. More drops. More "Fetch" associations.
    Your pup is waaay smarter than you're giving credit.


    As for these game-playing human beings who actually speak English (mostly) and have plenty of money to waste, they know FULL WELL how incendiary their actions come across. They do it for the media attention, REGARDLESS of the disrespect.

    They cheapen their own "message" by their pisspoor delivery.

    And the NFL is simply trying to make a buck. It has contracts with these "media darlings" because they represent the "brand", on and off the field. If the players don't want to be held to that kind of restriction, then they have the right to get a job somewhere else. Some jobs have you following the boss' rules 40-hours a week, and others carry a 24/7 commitment. I feel no pity for them. We upheld much higher standards for much lower pay in the military...

    Like I said before, today is about the Fallen for this Country.

    The selfish, pieces of disrespectful trash from the NFL can get bent.




    Good luck with your pup.
     

    wildrider666

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    When a person does a mass shooting, do we blame the criminal that did the shooting or the gun?

    When there is an LE Officer that uses excessive force or unjustified lethal force, do we blame the officer(s) involved or all LE?

    Heaven forbid criminals are profiled by any commonality but let's group LE all together.

    Are the correct courses of action to BAN guns and abolish LE?

    Mass shooters, like bad apple/bad judgement cops are a minuscule segment of their respective populations.

    I'm really tired of all the blanket "We're all victims, your all racists" bullshit. All of you aren't and neither are we!

    Should we judge all by the failings of the lowest within the collective social group? IMHO : No.

    Address each issue on its specific problem areas and fix them.
     

    Grifdawg

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    It'd probably be the same IF I told you to Go Fuck Yourself.

    Wow...... talk about intolerance. I guess if someone puts forth an opposing view that is not aligned with his thinking, it is a threat to everything he holds dear. They become his mortal enemy. I kinda feel sorry for that person. Only seeing the world in black or right, good or evil must be easy! Its a simple solution to complex thought. While I'm sure I don't agree with many of the people on this forum on a host of issues, I respect their right to their opinion. Not him.
     
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