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National anthem debate

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    Grifdawg

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    Earlier in the week, NFL owners voted to mandate on-field standing during the playing of the National Anthem for players and team staff. Violations will be met with fines. Trump later stated any NFL players who doesn't stand shouldn't be in this country. Is this a case of mandatory patriotic displays or an attempt to dismiss the player's stated reason for their actions. All the players vehemently deny any suggestion their actions are an attempt to dishonor our country or military personnel. Secondly, should the President of the United States be suggesting deportation for anyone he deems not patriotic enough? (Note: His 7 deferment for bone spurs during Vietnam) Wasn't this country founded on folks protesting what they deem as an injustice? Was not every significant improvement/correction in this country the result of someone publicly raising the concern? Is the NFL's new policy righting a wrong or caving to pressure from those with a political stake in keeping a segment of this country anxious and pitted against anyone unlike them? Thoughts?
     

    spongemonkey

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    Personally I think this ruling by the nfl is to try and regain some of the revenue and market loss it lost or is losing due to the public's dislike of the kneeling. Personally, I also feel the players can kneel all they want to even though I dont like it or agree with it. It will not affect me one bit since I stopped watching the games when the kneeling started.
     

    Grifdawg

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    Personally I think this ruling by the nfl is to try and regain some of the revenue and market loss it lost or is losing due to the public's dislike of the kneeling.

    Do you think the public outrage is based in a false premise? A narrative exploited by those who stand the most to gain by it? I do not think those players harbor any ill-feeling about this country or its military. They have said why they choose this action. Many of them have family in the military and law enforcement. I think this action and comments afterward is meant only to appease. While those players have spent their lives honing their bodies and skill-set to perform at the highest level, they are probably the most grateful to this nation for the opportunity to earn wealth playing a game. To paint them as ungrateful and unpatriotic is wrong.
     

    spongemonkey

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    I dont know what the rest of the public thinks. I only know what I think and I do not like the idea of them kneeling for what ever reason they claim to use. They may not be unpatriotic or ungratful, they do have the right to protest, however I feel they picked the wrong time (during the anthem) to voice thier protest. I dont contribute any of my money to any nfl affiliated event to fund their highly over paid salaries.
     
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    Little Jack

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    Whether or not you like it, there's now a company policy on the anthem protests. They can still kneel during the anthem, they're just going to have to deal with the consequences.

    They aren't limited in their free speech on their own time, just when they're at work. Talk to the SC to figure out if political/societal opinions are covered under any other anti discrimination laws. I

    What else, beside kneeling, are any of the "protesters" doing? If you've got information, I'd be interested to hear. There are other avenues available besides kneeling during the anthem. If they really cared about the issue, I'd argue they'd be putting in time/effort when they aren't being paid 6 figures or more, to play catch.

    I don't think the NFL gives a poop about what's"right". Like sponge said, I think it's a financial move.

    I've lost zero sleep over this. I stopped watching much football when I went overseas in 2003 and the games were on at 0300.
     

    Grifdawg

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    I dont contribute any of my money to any nfl affiliated event to fund their highly over paid salaries.
    Does the market not drive salaries? The owners set the price of the tickets and associated expenses with enjoying an NFL game. Those guy spend a lifetime working toward performing at that level. Is Bubba Watson overpaid also? How about Tony Steward and those players in the NHL? If reaching the NFL was easy, we'd all be playing I bet. As long as the owners, cities and marketing are making billions off the skills of these guy, they should be paid just what the market dictates.
     

    Droshki

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    Let me know when they stop violating the flag code by carrying and displaying the flag horizontally,

    The Flag Code says that “the flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.”
    and I'll consider getting upset about anything that happens after that.



    Oh, yea, and generally treating it like this:

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    spongemonkey

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    I will say that if I was the owner of an nfl team, which means that I would be paying the player's salaries, if one of my players took a knee on "my dime", they would be looking for another job!
     

    Grifdawg

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    I will say that if I was the owner of an nfl team, which means that I would be paying the player's salaries, if one of my players took a knee on "my dime", they would be looking for another job!

    Ok...... I'm sure you'd quickly dismiss Drew Brees or Alvin Kamara even after they assure you as to the reason they are kneeling. After your 0 - 16 season, I'm sure you'd reconsider. It is amazing how much we'd accept to protect the 2nd Amendment, but will quickly strip the 1st Amendment when we don't agree with a portion of it. Did those "fine people" in Charlottesville have a right to protest there? Should the government have prevented their demonstrations?
     
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    spongemonkey

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    Ok...... I'm sure you'd quickly dismiss Drew Brees or Alvin Kamara even after they assure you as to the reason they are kneeling. After your 0 - 16 season, I'm sure you'd reconsider. It is amazing how much we'd accept to protect the 2nd Amendment, but will quickly strip the 1st Amendment when we don't agree with a portion of it.

    Please read Little Jacks' Guns statement above: They aren't limited in their free speech on their own time, just when they're at work. Talk to the SC to figure out if political/societal opinions are covered under any other anti discrimination laws. Then check into the Supreme Court ruling on the 1rst amendment while under employ and on the time clock of your employer. It may shed some light. I assure you like I stated before, if its on my dime and they kneel, they would be looking for another job regardless of how great they may be. My company, my rules, if they dont like it, they need to be some where else regardless if a football team or any other business. I am different, I am not all about the money or the recognition, I have respect and decency as I am sure many others do as well.
     

    Little Jack

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    Ok...... I'm sure you'd quickly dismiss Drew Brees or Alvin Kamara even after they assure you as to the reason they are kneeling. After your 0 - 16 season, I'm sure you'd reconsider. It is amazing how much we'd accept to protect the 2nd Amendment, but will quickly strip the 1st Amendment when we don't agree with a portion of it. Did those "fine people" in Charlottesville have a right to protest there? Should the government have prevented their demonstrations?

    You're mixing and matching private/public. If sponge monkey wants to run his business in that manner, he has the right. Does an individuals first amendment rights"trump"( ha ha, pun!) everyone else's rights?

    Should the bakery have had to bake the cake? You're saying Sponge would be limiting his employees First, but you're ok with limiting Sponge's right to run his business how he wants (IAW all other rules regs).

    What are we "accepting" to protect the 2nd that you're willing to concede.
     

    wildrider666

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    There have always been people through ignorance, laziness, in deference or protest; have not honored patriot protocols. Rules and Laws have been ignored or overturned by the Courts due to 1A arguements.

    The NFL had been flip flopping on the "taking a knee" issue. Majority backlash with bad press from the streets to the White House and resulted in substantial revenue loss to the NFL. The NFL made a business decision as a effort to regain income/profit from ticket sales, merchandise, advertising and broadcasting sources.

    Its a simple decision: Employees will work within the scope of their employment and in fact represent the employer/business while on the clock. Employers can also designate when breaks/lunch occur: at which time employees may attend to personal non interfering (with workplace) activities. Some players may bitch or say its a change to their contract but standing for the National Anthem was a standard activity long before the protests and the "Change just formalized it and fines for noncompliance.

    Can a Marine act in direct support of political election issue or candidate while in uniform? No. Can a Marine take a knee during Colors without ramifications? No.

    How about the franchise fast food and coffee shop employees or managers that express political or anti LE bias toward customers? When they are busted they get "retrained" or fired and Corporate makes public apologies. Some employee expression is in line with the businesses position or the business is in different when it does not impact profitability. The NFL was officially indifferent until backlash impacted profits.

    Protest is fine but not on your employers dime or acting in a representative capacity: unless expressly allowed.

    Many Presidents and Politicians have pushed patriotic issues and passed Acts/Laws for them. Check you calender for legal holidays and Special Recogination Day, Week or Month periods.

    Its a bit Chicken Little like to literally believe comments ment to express the extent of the President's displeasure but you can interpret them as you wish.

    Trumps Military Deferment (like W. Clintons) was within the Law. Therefore, it would not be a derogatory issue when viewed without a personal bias regarding deferments or the individual concerned.

    Isn't the general public potential customers of the NFLs product either by choice or exposure?
     

    Zeroed in

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    While those players have spent their lives honing their bodies and skill-set to perform at the highest level, they are probably the most grateful to this nation for the opportunity to earn wealth playing a game. To paint them as ungrateful and unpatriotic is wrong.

    They are a bunch of sorry SOB's who have disrespected this Country. Take your BS sympathy to the Families of the Soldiers who have paid the Ultimate Price with their Life, and their wounded battered Bodies, Defending those Ungrateful Pricks you so glorify as saints. Go ask those Soldiers Families how they Feel about it. F*ck the NFL and the POS Disrespectful Degrading A-holes who kneel during the National Anthem. There's other ways to make a point without shitting on the Country you call Home.
    That's my opinion, and I have read yours. Nuff said.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    The NFL's new policy is a money decision to try and regain lost revenue. (Not gonna work on me.)
    The POTUS comments of disapproval for the inappropriate actions of those players is just his opinion.
    The two are unrelated.

    Those overpaid players picked the wrong time and the wrong way to voice their opinion. They are still free to do so. They just have clear consequences for their choice.

    And no, I don't give a rat's ass how long they spend in the gym or what chemicals they dose themselves with to "perform to that level"... it's a kid's game. They're overpaid. If they truly feel strongly about an issue, they have free time OFF the company clock to spend their time and money towards those causes. Disrespecting the flag, and the Nation, is Not the way to do it.

    And whomever thinks that kneeling on-purpose during the National Anthem is "Not" disrespectful... well, that person is a short-sighted, misguided, self-centered ignorant fool...
     

    spongemonkey

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    Grifdawg, I have a question for you. I see your avitar is that of a military patch, say of the Marines? Are you a member or was a member of the Marines? If so, what would have happened to you if you were in the Marines and decided to exercise your first amendment rights and took a knee at the playing of the anthem at any gathering? Just curious.
     

    Famine

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    I agree with Little Jack. The NFL has made it a condition of employment. As employees of NFL teams they have a choice comply or suffer the consequences . As individuals on their own time and place they are free to exercise their 1st Amendment right and for that matter every other Constitution granted rights.
     

    Grifdawg

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    They are a bunch of sorry SOB's who have disrespected this Country.

    What if I told you their action are not intended to dishonor anybody or this country! Never has any player ever said differently. I served so that people have the right to protest what they perceive as an injustice. I certainly didn't serve to establish mandatory patriotic displays if ones heart is not there. This action has been hi-jacked into something other than its initial intent.
     

    Grifdawg

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    Grifdawg, I have a question for you. I see your avitar is that of a military patch, say of the Marines? Are you a member or was a member of the Marines? If so, what would have happened to you if you were in the Marines and decided to exercise your first amendment rights and took a knee at the playing of the anthem at any gathering? Just curious.

    I did 30 years and retired a few years ago. While I don't see a reason to kneel during the anthem, I always stood because I felt it was the right thing to do. If someone decided not to stand, it is a right granted in the greatest country in the world. The thought of forcing someone to perform a patriotic act just seems un-American.
     

    spongemonkey

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    I did 30 years and retired a few years ago. While I don't see a reason to kneel during the anthem, I always stood because I felt it was the right thing to do. If someone decided not to stand, it is a right granted in the greatest country in the world. The thought of forcing someone to perform a patriotic act just seems un-American.

    Thanks for your service! I tend to disagree with your opinion though. They are not being "forced" to perform a patriotic act. They are still allowed a choice of which they are freely to choose. They (nfl players) have been given the option to remain in the locker room if they feel the need not to stand during the anthem. They have been given a choice and are not being forced to stand.
     
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