ATF Measuring OAL With Brace Folded?

Ross7 · May 25, 2018

May be just an issue in Connecticut where this happened, but of course the ATF is a Federal outfit so.....

According to Victor Benson, proprietor of The Freedom Shoppe, the ATF is measuring his firearms with the brace folded and declaring his firearms as illegal AOWs.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/05/24/oal-brace-folded/

Droshki · May 25, 2018

Since when do pistols have have an over all length > 26"?

donr101395 · May 25, 2018

Droshki said:
Since when do pistols have have an over all length > 26"?

If the overall length is greater than 26" with the buffer tube and the barrel is less than 16" it's not a pistol, it's a firearm. That is how people are getting around the no vert grip/AOW requirement.

Little Jack · May 25, 2018

Clear as mud. Federal vs state. The guys that are buying these and jumping through the hoops to try and stay legal aren't going to break the law with them by robbing a bank. But the feds/state took the time effort to enforce it. Hearts in the right place?

Droshki · May 26, 2018

So the owners are trying to construct/own a "firearm" that exists only in this tenuous place between a rifle, a short barreled rifle, and a pistol.

To me, this seems like an incredibly ill-advised needle to try to thread, under an administration that had previously said in its banning of bumbstocks:

By working around the A.T.F.’s earlier interpretation, the Justice Department essentially said that the statute had not changed, but that it could now be read in a different way.

donr101395 · May 26, 2018

It's no different than the shockwave shotguns. It's the exact same class of weapons.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

wildrider666 · May 26, 2018

FWIW: All BATFE referenced AOL measuring text state "STOCK". "BRACES" are specifically NOT STOCKS in order to achieve a different purpose. Since they are not "Stocks", BATFE does not include the "Brace" or mounting hardware installed: only the end of receiver components.

With "Braces" excluded and length falling below minimum: if categorized as a handgun the installed FWD Vert Grip would place it in the AOW Class per BATFE Memo though never specified in any actual Law. This could be a good Test Case to get rid of the Threat by Memo since the NFA specifically excludes pistols with rifled barrels from its AOW Classification/definition.

IMHO: Non-attorney, Non-NFA expert

wildrider666 · May 27, 2018

This Company offers a "Folding Brace & Pistol Grip Kit for the Tac-14. Problem remains the same with reliance on Rules for a with STOCK AOL measurement being applied to a with BRACE firearm in their product description. Folded its OAL is 24 inches. I read their BATFE letters pictured with the Kit. The Letters reference a firearm THEY wanted to Mfg, no reference to "Folding" and another letter regarding shouldering braces (outdated). If they have a BATFE approval letter its not posted, and the BATFE has a bad habit of reversing technical decisions!
https://suarezinternational.com/suarez-tac-14-folding-arm-brace-system/

Standard configuration Mossy Shockwave and Rem Tac-14 12ga firearms have fixed rear grips and comply with the 26 inch AOL requirement. Since they are "as originally manufactured" and not made as or from a "shotgun": the minimum 18 inch barrel requirement does not apply.

The Rem Tac-14 Arm Brace model has a AOL of 33.5 inches, a rear pistol grip and the brace. I assume the "as manufactured" covers it, not a shotgun so Pistol grip or PGO shotgun can't apply. The design of the pistol grip and brace add 7 inches beyond what the std configuration offers.

FrommerStop · May 30, 2018

I was thinking of posting a question over at there at the WT Forum asking what was what on their tac 14 with the folding stock/brace relative to the ATF and decided it was not a good idea. I will wait for someone else to pose that question. Different regions of the ATF may be interpreting this differently. Many federal agencies are split into regions or districts and are not always on the same page. Perhaps Arizona may be different than Connecticut.

wildrider666 said:
This Company offers a "Folding Brace & Pistol Grip Kit for the Tac-14. Problem remains the same with reliance on Rules for a with STOCK AOL measurement being applied to a with BRACE firearm in their product description. Folded its OAL is 24 inches. I read their BATFE letters pictured with the Kit. The Letters reference a firearm THEY wanted to Mfg, no reference to "Folding" and another letter regarding shouldering braces (outdated). If they have a BATFE approval letter its not posted, and the BATFE has a bad habit of reversing technical decisions!
https://suarezinternational.com/suarez-tac-14-folding-arm-brace-system/

Standard configuration Mossy Shockwave and Rem Tac-14 12ga firearms have fixed rear grips and comply with the 26 inch AOL requirement. Since they are "as originally manufactured" and not made as or from a "shotgun": the minimum 18 inch barrel requirement does not apply.

The Rem Tac-14 Arm Brace model has a AOL of 33.5 inches, a rear pistol grip and the brace. I assume the "as manufactured" covers it, not a shotgun so Pistol grip or PGO shotgun can't apply. The design of the pistol grip and brace add 7 inches beyond what the std configuration offers.

wildrider666 · May 30, 2018

FrommerStop said:
I was thinking of posting a question over at there at the WT Forum asking what was what on their tac 14 with the folding stock/brace relative to the ATF and decided it was not a good idea. I will wait for someone else to pose that question. Different regions of the ATF may be interpreting this differently. Many federal agencies are split into regions or districts and are not always on the same page. Perhaps Arizona may be different than Connecticut.

For MFGs dealing with the BATFE its always better to ask for permission then hope for forgiveness. I hope they have their own ATF decision letter on file but that may not prevent liability is the interpretation is changed. BATFE Letters normally have that little caveat stating their letter applies only to the Item and references submitted. Another Mfg or private party expecting that someone elses Letter covers their "like item or like application" may find out the hard way it doesn't. Even with Approval Letters, we have seen decisions reversed and/or new State Legislation at great cost and liability to the MFG.

ksenter · May 30, 2018

since when did shockwave blades come with armstraps?

FrommerStop · May 30, 2018

ksenter said:
since when did shockwave blades come with armstraps?

Here is a picture of one with arm brace I think for remington

wildrider666 · May 31, 2018

ksenter said:
since when did shockwave blades come with armstraps?

I think all references are to the Mossy Shorty 12 ga firearm not the KAK Shockwave Blade.

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