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3 day waiting clarirfcation.... or lack there of.

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  • Little Jack

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    GCGF,

    I've been trying to get someone at the FDLE/AG to give me a yay/nay on when the 3 day wait starts, specifically for transfers. I called the AG... they sent me to the FDLE.... FDLE told me to read the manual....... the manual told me to call the AG........ shit.

    Nobody is willing to provide anything. I sent the below :

    Subject: 3 day wait for firearms

    I'm looking for clarification on the 3 day wait and when it starts. I
    understand that the wait starts at "purschase" from retailer. I'm concerned
    about when it starts for a transfer for a purchase made online then sent to a
    FFL in the state to do the 4473. Does the wait start from the purchase from
    the out of state retailer? Does the wait start from payment to the dealer who
    will be accepting the shipment for his services? Is the AGO 92-97 still
    accurate with reflecting a "day" as 24 hrs?

    I received the following reply:

    Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi received your email inquiring about Florida's firearm laws. Attorney General Bondi asked that I respond.

    We appreciate that you consider our office as a source of assistance. The Attorney General's Office is not at liberty to provide legal opinions or statutory interpretations to private individuals. However, Florida law provides this office with the authority to issue legal opinions to certain public officials on questions of law pertaining to their official duties. The Attorney General's Opinions Policy is online at http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/Main/4FF72ECF62927EEA85256CC6007B4517, along with a searchable database of opinions issued since 1974 ( see http://myfloridalegal.com/opinions). Please understand that Attorney General opinions are advisory only and are not binding. In addition, we do not update our opinions so there may have been changes in the law (including case law) that would alter the conclusions reached therein.

    At the state level, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) operates the Firearm Purchase Program and provides helpful information about firearm sales and requirements online at http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs2.aspx. You may contact FDLE at (850) 410-8139 or online at http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/Contact-Us. In regard to federal requirements, you may contact the U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives at https://www.atf.gov/.

    If you need legal guidance, please consult a private attorney. Thank you for contacting Attorney General Bondi's office. I hope this proves helpful.
    XXX

    It was not helpful.

    We've discussed this issue in the past. My policy stands. I'm going to have 3 business days in between the first and second signatures so that my A is C'd
     

    Little Jack

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    CCW takes out the guess work. I'm just frustrated that it's this hard to follow the law. You'd think a 3 day wait would be easy to understand. I think the "intent" of the law is met as the customer waits for the gun to show up at the receiving dealer. My ATF inspector said that was "fine" but he also said that the ATF doesn't enforce state law. The state won't give me a straight answer.
     
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    I have been wondering about my procedure for transferring long guns to FL residents (since the new law). A FL resident with a CCW doesn't have to wait 3 days? That is helpful information.
     

    Little Jack

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    Wait begins at time background check is done


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    reference?

    FPP dealer manual states the following:

    The waiting period for firearms will begin with the purchase, which is the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer. The dealer should advise the buyer when the three-day waiting period will end.
    When the buyer returns, the dealer will pull the partially completed ATF F-4473 Form. The dealer must ask the buyer to review Section A and sign and date again if the information is still correct. The dealer must complete Section B and sign and date the form. The dealer must verify the buyer’s identity again by inspecting photo identification. Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 178.124(c), requires the establishing of identification and completion of Section B at the time of transfer.
    Please note that this procedure is different from previous ATF instructions concerning the signing of the ATF F-4473 Form. The State of Florida has been working with ATF, and the procedure outlined here has been approved for documenting the waiting period between the first and second signatures of the buyer. The two signatures will supply accountability for the information provided for the record checks and again at the actual time of transfer of the firearm. The physical transfer must take place before the expiration of the approval number (thirty calendar days).
    Since the three-day waiting period is separate from and in addition to the FPP background record check, persons who require clarification regarding the three day wait must contact the State Attorney’s Office in their jurisdiction, the Florida Attorney General’s Office at (850) 414-3300, or the local Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Office.

    The way I read the bold disagrees with your statement. Previous version for the FPP manual stated the background check and 3 day wait did not have to run concurrently and suggested that you run it as late as you could to get the most current information.

    If you've got a source, I'd like to see it.

    I'm unclear as to your relationship with 2nd Amendment in Niceville. Many of your posts are tooting their horn so I'm not sure if you work there or are just a fan. Second amendment mentioned in the last thread "I have spoke with bill eddins, the assistant state attorney for the first judicial circuit of Florida, and he said: purchasing gun in shop = 72hr wait starts at monetary transfer. Ffl transfer = starts when ffl receives gun and receives transfer fee (monetary exchange). Layaway = 72hr starts when item is paid in full. " Thread can be found here. https://www.gulfcoastgunforum.com/s...-just-turn-the-3-day-waiting-rule-on-it-s-ear

    I don't want to rehash the entirety of that thread. Short version: Nobody really knows. None of the GOV agencies will give you a straight answer. If they do, call them back the next day and get a different answer.
     

    JoeCorrado

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    My understanding is that the wait begins when money is transferred. For instance at the beginning of a layaway or for an FFL transfer would be when the transfer fee was paid. By reading what the law states, this will CYA.
     

    Little Jack

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    My understanding is that the wait begins when money is transferred. For instance at the beginning of a layaway or for an FFL transfer would be when the transfer fee was paid. By reading what the law states, this will CYA.

    That's the more conservative option for the transfer. That's what I'm going with currently. Many take the "purchase" to mean when you pay for the gun. ATF inspector suggested that would meet the law but also said they aren't responsible for state laws. There's a reference I found online for IL purchases that uses the same verbiage with a description of similar scenarios. My issue is if the State is OK with the "purchase" from the online "retailer" as the start of the wait, my customers are waiting longer than they need to.
     

    JoeCorrado

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    Personally, if I had an FFL I would lean toward the cautious side. With your receipt of the transfer fee, you've covered yourself and you have proof. You don't have to worry with a receipt from your customers purchase either. It would be a little odd asking your customer for their sales receipt. Just mho of course.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    You might as well start the "wait" for a transfer from when the customer shows up to pay the transfer fee. Theoretically, since firearms are usually overnight shipped, if the seller is ready to ship once funds are received, the firearm could get to you well within a 3-day window. If the customer has tracking info (the normal situation), then they could also meet with you within that 3-day window of "purchase from the online retailer".

    Why risk it. We're all adults. Victims of the same endless reams of red tape. No one should blame you for making sure everyone is covered.

    But yeah, a CWL makes life easier...
     

    wildrider666

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    AG Bondi provided a Legal Advisory Opinion in the past, doesn't make sense that they can't review it or update it. Info @Link was Referenced in OP. http://myfloridalegal.com/ago.nsf/Opinions/68D692F7E89E96BD852562A7005D9E58
    My non lawyer, non FFL opinion:
    The FL Statute doesn't list the reason for the 3 Day Wait. There are two basic reasons normally given to justify waiting periods:
    a. A cooling off period. This is not the key purpose as "Cooling Off" would have no relationship requiring non-business days not be included in the prescribed period.
    b. To allow a period of time to conduct Background check(s). This is clearly tied into working business days in order to give investigative agencies a maximum limit of time to do the Check before the FFL

    There are often delays between a internet "purchase" and the receiving/transfering FFL receiving the firearm, including non working days, only working days or both. Even though money has been paid by the Buyer to a distant/Net Seller. the transaction is not complete as it must be done by the Buyers designated FFL who must submit the Buyers NICS/Background check info with verified Buyer and specific firearm information. Money is paid for the NICS and transfer fee to the FFL: THIS is the START of the process with a PURCHASE from THIS FFL and the 3 Business Days for the Background checks.

    We have a old Statute that I think is based on over the counter purchases. There is no purchase without a properly processed 4473/NICS and that can not be done by remotely located Sellers for distant buyers not physically present.

    There can't be another legal interpetation. Say a handgun purchased on the Net took ten consecutive days (8 business, 2 non working) till the receiving FFL got it. Is their liability for a FFL if they just did the paperwork, made the NICS call and handed over the handgun without allowing NICS any real time to do the check? I think there is.
     

    Jason

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    The biggest stupid thing is being a LEO, I can conceal carry places with just a permit can't since my badge and commission card is my permit... Yet when I want to buy a pistol, I have to wait 3 days. I can go into a store in uniform with a pistol on my side and still have to wait 3 days. Everyone tells me just to get my permit but I don't worry about a 3 day wait and I don't buy a ton of pistols so no biggie.

    Nate, I would definitely error on the side of caution and I believe the 3 day start at the time you run the background check is reasonable. I guess if you look at it this way though. I bought and paid for that pistol I am going to pick up from you next week over a week ago, so I can see where someone might have a fit and say I waited over 3 days already, so I can understand it both ways.
     

    FrankT

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    Why the 3 day wait? To check to see IF you are eligible or not to get the gun. SOOO I would think the 3 days starts at the callin on the individual(The retailer just sold the gun not checking the legality, thus the FFL), common sense, no matter the law and safer for all.
     

    JoeCorrado

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    A firearm can't be released by the FFL unless it is approved. If it says decision pending then it isn't approved and can't be released until FDLE approves it. The 3 day wait is just a feel good measure that really doesn't do much of anything but tries to show the gun grabbers that the governor did something. The law reads that when money is exchanged starts the 3 day wait. Not when the background check is performed.
     

    wildrider666

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    The biggest stupid thing is being a LEO, I can conceal carry places with just a permit can't since my badge and commission card is my permit... Yet when I want to buy a pistol, I have to wait 3 days. I can go into a store in uniform with a pistol on my side and still have to wait 3 days. Everyone tells me just to get my permit but I don't worry about a 3 day wait and I don't buy a ton of pistols so no biggie. ..........

    The problem with a LE "Cutout" exemption is the fact that LE could have a disqualifying domestic violence issue and still be active. I've personally known two who were restricted and drew/returned there firearms each Shift. I rate but hate LE cutouts. They allow additional 2A related exemptions that are not allowed for the average Citizen. If LE HAD TO COMPLY with the same restrictive anti-gun LAWS, many of those Laws would not have been supported by LE/Mgmt/Orgs and never been passed. Every cutout that ties into off duty/personal issues needs to be eliminated. IMHO
     

    Little Jack

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    As Joe and the Statute says. "Purchase" is the determining factor. The question is WHICH purchase. The more conservative, and my current policy, is to go with the transfer. The law isn't for background checks. Before the law change, it was the same check done for long gun and handguns. No extra time required for the long guns. MOST* of my checks come back in a few minutes. I've had some outliers that were between 20 min and 2 hours. I've had a few "conditionals" that kick in a whole other 3 day wait, regardless of CCW, handgun, long gun etc.

    A small, but important, distinction. The FDLE/FPP is not NICS. They check the NICS information but it's a different setup. Laws/rules for NICS usage, with some overlap, aren't the same in FL.

    Question 10 from the FAQ in the FPP dealer manual:

    Question:
    Does the time frame for the background check and the 3-day waiting period have to coincide?
    Answer:
    There is no requirement that the three-day waiting period and the thirty days for which an approval is good must
    start concurrently. The three-day wait begins with the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the dealer. The 30-day background check window begins when the approval decision is provided and ends 30 days later.

    Edit: sorry for the formatting.
     

    M60Gunner

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    Very interesting discussion. When I was a cop (fed) my buddy got tagged under the Lautenberg Amendment and lost his job. He was later picked up by (and is still with) the LAPD, so I guess some jurisdictions have a different view on Lautenberg. I personally turned down several people last year who had the misdemeanor domestic violence conviction but wanted to take my handgun class (NRA). My main worry is the right to private transfers between private individuals remaining legal.
     

    Ross7

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    I have a CWL so the three day wait doesn't affect me, but I always thought the wait was just a "cooling off" period for someone buying over the counter and therefore able to take instant possession of the gun.

    So if I'm reading this right, if someone buys a gun online and it takes three or more days to arrive at their FFL, besides already waiting/cooling off during those shipment days they are then required to make two trips to their FFL. One to pay transfer fee and get background check and another one three days later to pick up their gun. Sucks for them if the nearest FFL is like 50 or something miles away.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    ...Sucks for them if the nearest FFL is like 50 or something miles away.

    True. I thought if you're over 50-miles from Nate, he'll rub your shoulders and give you a free foot massage for your travels.


    Luckily, I'm closer than 50-miles from him, cuz... well, that's just weird.
     
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