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3 day waiting clarirfcation.... or lack there of.

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  • wildrider666

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    Firearm Purchase Process

    "What is the process for purchasing a firearm in Florida from a licensed firearm dealer?
    *-Fill out the ATF Form 4473 provided by the firearm dealer."
    There is additional info but the above is how the FLORIDA PROCESS starts.
    http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs1.aspx

    Not really a purchase, actually a Transfer that requires:
    From Link: Firearm Transaction Decisions
    "The pending transaction..." "Every effort is made to conclude the research and make a final decision before the 3-day waiting period ends.* Some transactions may take longer than 3 business days."
    Can't start the background check until the 4473 is completed and called in. Clearly links the "3-Day Waiting period" to the background check. Since the firearm is "purchased" from somewhere else: references to purchase/waiting time don't apply to your "Transaction" with the receiving customer but the 3-Day Wait does.
    http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs3.aspx
     
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    Little Jack

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    Firearm Purchase Process

    "What is the process for purchasing a firearm in Florida from a licensed firearm dealer?
    *-Fill out the ATF Form 4473 provided by the firearm dealer."
    There is additional info but the above is how the FLORIDA PROCESS starts.
    http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs1.aspx

    Not really a purchase, actually a Transfer that requires:
    From Link: Firearm Transaction Decisions
    "The pending transaction..." "Every effort is made to conclude the research and make a final decision before the 3-day waiting period ends.* Some transactions may take longer than 3 business days."
    Can't start the background check until the 4473 is completed and called in. Clearly links the "3-Day Waiting period" to the background check. Since the firearm is "purchased" from somewhere else: references to purchase/waiting time don't apply to your "Transaction" with the receiving customer but the 3-Day Wait does.
    http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs3.aspx

    FAQ 3 is discussing "conditionals". That's a whole other 3 day wait. The exception (2% of call ins) doesn't make the rule. That 3 day "conditional" could apply to ALL transactions prior to the rule change. Not just hand guns.
     

    Jason

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    Here is one fer ya.....Im down in Orlando fer some DR apts and the news was talking about some new ordinance down here and a gun show going on this weekend. The skinny on it is NO PRIVATE SALES. Now mind you the news down here is just like anywhere else... They said 3 day wait on ALL GUNS with the exception of CWP and being a LEO... I think they meant to say 3 day wait on pistols but actually saying no wait fer LEO, I might go to the show to try this out tomorrow!!!!
     

    FelixH

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    Based on this:
    "Please note that this procedure is different from previous ATF instructions concerning the signing of the ATF F-4473 Form. The State of Florida has been working with ATF, and the procedure outlined here has been approved for documenting the waiting period between the first and second signatures of the buyer. The two signatures will supply accountability for the information provided for the record checks and again at the actual time of transfer of the firearm."

    It sounds like the wait is between the signatures.
    So the wait would start when the 4473 is initially signed, and would end when it is signed the second time.
    Not a lawyer, not an FFL, just taking a stab at it.
     

    Droshki

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    Here is one fer ya.....Im down in Orlando fer some DR apts and the news was talking about some new ordinance down here and a gun show going on this weekend. The skinny on it is NO PRIVATE SALES. Now mind you the news down here is just like anywhere else... They said 3 day wait on ALL GUNS with the exception of CWP and being a LEO... I think they meant to say 3 day wait on pistols but actually saying no wait fer LEO, I might go to the show to try this out tomorrow!!!!

    There's been at least 2 threads on here recently, discussing the various Florida counties that have been passing laws banning private gun sales that dont take place exclusively on private property.
     

    Little Jack

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    Based on this:
    "Please note that this procedure is different from previous ATF instructions concerning the signing of the ATF F-4473 Form. The State of Florida has been working with ATF, and the procedure outlined here has been approved for documenting the waiting period between the first and second signatures of the buyer. The two signatures will supply accountability for the information provided for the record checks and again at the actual time of transfer of the firearm."

    It sounds like the wait is between the signatures.
    So the wait would start when the 4473 is initially signed, and would end when it is signed the second time.
    Not a lawyer, not an FFL, just taking a stab at it.

    I make sure I've got 3 days between my signatures so that there's no question, even though the "Purchase" may have been a week before I see my customer.

    As the discussion in this and the previous thread, it's not a clear answer. You've got multiple government agencies that aren't talking to each other. You've got different counties with variances in the State law. You've got carve outs for mil/le/doc/ccw etc. The frustrating part is the lack of any attempt on the State's part to clarify. If I interpret the law to mean something different that what the State thinks it should mean, it's on me to deal with the legal implications. We've got an unpublished opinion from the AG through a third party, but what weight is that going to carry and is Bill Eddins going to back that up?
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    Since there is a discrepancy between Federal (ATF), State (AG & FDLE/FPP), and local (Sherrifs & county commissioners) interpretations, who do you FFL-holders "fall under" for jurisdiction?

    Doesn't the first "F" in FFL stand for Federal? But if you are supposed to comply with all laws, then who do you get your clarifications from when they don't agree? And if they don't agree, then which laws have more "authority"?

    It would seem that if you are obligated to comply with all statutes, down to the most restrictive, then the author of those most restrictive statutes would be your belly-button for clarifications. In this case, if you live in a semi-free county, the state would be the POC.

    If the AG and FDLE keep punting it back and forth, then prestent that clearly in an official correspondence to both, and professionally demand an answer.
     
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    My credit card processing company sent me a letter, requesting that I make sure I was in compliance with the new laws in Florida, when selling to a Florida resident. Maybe I should ask them their interpretation of the news laws.
     

    FLT

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    I find it interesting that banks feel that they are in the law enforcement business.
     
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    I find it interesting that banks feel that they are in the law enforcement business.

    Yeah, and these independent CC processors aren't even banks, I don't think. They just make sure funds go from one bank to another bank.
     

    FLT

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    Several of the folks in my group have been discussing going back to using cash for firearm related and most other purchases. It seems that the credit card companies share you information with everyone.
     

    wildrider666

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    My credit card processing company sent me a letter, requesting that I make sure I was in compliance with the new laws in Florida, when selling to a Florida resident. Maybe I should ask them their interpretation of the news laws.

    Just another example of financial institution overreach regarding firearms. Odds are when laws change impacting other sales businesses they don't send letters about compliance.
     

    IronBeard

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    I find it interesting that banks feel that they are in the law enforcement business.

    Money talks, influences, and eventually controls. Works the same from Podunk on up to the federal level.
     

    FrommerStop

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    I understand CYA. What is the penalty for not following the three day wait at the state level?
    I would see what the local larger gunstores are doing also.
     

    lil'skeet

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    For what it is worth, I have in writing that 3 day wait begins at time customer purchases firearm with proof of day and time on receipt with serial # of firearm. I had my ATF agent make that very clear, highlighted it and signed it. Rules are rules and I didn't make them. So by the time it is shipped it is usually ready to be taken home. I was not about to risk my FFL because I misunderstood.
     

    FrommerStop

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    For what it is worth, I have in writing that 3 day wait begins at time customer purchases firearm with proof of day and time on receipt with serial # of firearm. I had my ATF agent make that very clear, highlighted it and signed it. Rules are rules and I didn't make them. So by the time it is shipped it is usually ready to be taken home. I was not about to risk my FFL because I misunderstood.
    In this case the three waiting is a state law and not federal from what I have read. So think you need clarification from them or someone that knows. Trying to be a lawyer if you are right saves money, and if wrong costs you dearly.
    Possibly erring on the side of caution does CYA, but is not good for customer relations.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Several of the folks in my group have been discussing going back to using cash for firearm related and most other purchases. It seems that the credit card companies share you information with everyone.
    I try to pay my dealer with cash or check since it saves him the credit transaction fee. He knows me and will take a check.

    All of my big ammo purchases are by internet and credit card. No convenient way get away from that.
     

    sjustice64

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    790.0655 Purchase and delivery of firearms;
    692 mandatory waiting period; exceptions; penalties.—
    693 (1)(a) A mandatory 3-day waiting period is
    694 imposed between the purchase and delivery of a firearm. The
    695 mandatory waiting period is, which shall be 3 days, excluding
    696 weekends and legal holidays, or expires upon the completion of
    697 the records checks required under s. 790.065, whichever occurs
    698 later between the purchase and the delivery at retail


    ---- the phrase to look at is 3 days or expires upon completion of records check, whichever occurs later.

    So the law moves the 3 days from purchase to 3 days from BGC
     

    Little Jack

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    790.0655 Purchase and delivery of firearms;
    692 mandatory waiting period; exceptions; penalties.—
    693 (1)(a) A mandatory 3-day waiting period is
    694 imposed between the purchase and delivery of a firearm. The
    695 mandatory waiting period is, which shall be 3 days, excluding
    696 weekends and legal holidays, or expires upon the completion of
    697 the records checks required under s. 790.065, whichever occurs
    698 later between the purchase and the delivery at retail


    ---- the phrase to look at is 3 days or expires upon completion of records check, whichever occurs later.

    So the law moves the 3 days from purchase to 3 days from BGC

    No. It indicates if the customer has waited 3 days you still have to wait until a background check is done

    OR

    If the background check is done but they haven't waited 3 days, they still need to wait.

    See the previous posts from the dealer manual.

    You read it how you want. Issue still is that nobody that actually has any clout is willing to give a concrete answer so the FFL is let holding the bag.

    Lil skeet, my inspector told me the same thing about the purchase and verifying it with receipt/auction/ADB entries to meet the 3 day wait.
     
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