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  • Ross7

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    Tangentially related to the OP...

    Twenty states currently allow teachers and staff to carry guns to varying degrees on school property, so we don’t need to guess how the policy would work. There has yet to be a single case of someone being wounded or killed from a shooting, let alone a mass public shooting, between 6 AM and midnight at a school that lets teachers carry guns.

    https://crimeresearch.org/2019/05/m...nt-seen-school-shootings-during-school-hours/
     

    Big Shrek

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    Tangentially related to the OP...

    Twenty states currently allow teachers and staff to carry guns to varying degrees on school property, so we don’t need to guess how the policy would work. There has yet to be a single case of someone being wounded or killed from a shooting, let alone a mass public shooting, between 6 AM and midnight at a school that lets teachers carry guns.

    https://crimeresearch.org/2019/05/m...nt-seen-school-shootings-during-school-hours/

    That needs to be pointed out in Every gun debate.
    Especially those on school shootings.
     

    IronBeard

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    IMO . . . FIRST STEP . . . BARRIER. Gotta do it. Yep . . . it's a "build the wall" sorta thing. They work,we all know they work,but according to Pelosi,they are "immoral". Soooooooo . . . ??
    We'll . . . not exactly a wall,but a high,well designed fence. All the way around the school. With a central choke point.
    It would be fuglie,it would take forever to get the kids into school and out. How about this you "smarter than thou" Americans,allow the Israelis to show us how it's done. How many of their schools have been shot up ??
    IMO - - -> the single biggest problem with school security in America . . . is the Americans.
    I have seen proper fences/walls work. It CAN be done !! Politically correct Americans are their own worst enemy. If a parent had to wait an hour to pick up their urchin after school,they would be enraged. If their kid got killed in school,they are horrified and ready to take the instrumrnt of destruction away from the entire country.
    This gentlemen,is our America. --- SAWMAN

    Agreed. It might make the schools look like a fortress, but they can be tasteful, and if all the beliefs about threats are even somewhat true, that's money well spent, IMO. Physical measures don't need time off, they don't take sick days, and they don't get scared/distracted, among other things. When I compare the benefits of physical security measures that prevent/restrict/control the movements of a bad guy, compared to the ability of even the most stellar resource officer, there is no contest, and the alternative is to allow the bad guy(s) to act/move without little opposition until the cavalry arrives and figures out a plan to counter. The current demand by the general public that cops just throw themselves into the situation with abandon and figure it out on the fly is not exactly smart/feasible, either...
     

    Big Shrek

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    Many of the OLD antique schools of the past had exactly two main entrances to the campus...
    the Bus Gate, and the Front Gate...Bus gate was for the buses, obviously...
    then the Front Gate was used by car riders & teachers...and the occasional visitor.

    They had a giant Iron fence that ran around the entire school, mostly to keep us little twerps in.
    however, the more agile ones could simply climb right over it.

    Downside of fencing is it also makes ESCAPE more difficult. You've then trapped hundreds of kids in with whoever seeks to harm them. Which leads right back to WHO FIGHTS THE BAD GUY?? Either arm the Teachers & Staff, or Sit Down and Shut Up. Nothing else can work, nothing else will EVER work. One school resource officer per School or Campus has NEVER been enough. And as we saw in Broward, "Hey Look!! Four Cowards!!" If the Resource officers fail to go in and seek & destroy the shooter, they're a waste of time & resources.

    Another change to Florida CCW Law needs to be allowing Parents who have CCW's already, to carry on school grounds. To put it bluntly, some already do. If the Squishy hits the fan and they actually have to pull it & Get The Job Done because of an active shooter, I'd surmise, in the more Republican Counties of Florida, there would be Jury Nullification...but in the more Liberal Strongholds, the parent would be screwed.

    For Example, you are a CCW licensee, dropping your kids off at school, suddenly you hear shots fired...do you grab just your kids & haul buggy outta there, or do you go after the shooter?? Probably at least 1/5th would charge in to fight Hades with a bucket of Ice Water. If the wife was in the car, have her take the kids and go, take the pistol outta the lockbox, load it, then go in and solve for zero.

    Stuff everyone needs to start thinking about in this day & age.
    if you are willing to fight & die for school kids,
    are you also willing to go to jail because of fighting for those same kids lives?
     

    IronBeard

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    Agreed that what is meant to stop/hinder/re-direct could also entrap. The goal/hope would be to minimize that while containing the shooter(s). Reality is, if the threat is as high as perceived/believed, the real objective will be to first limit losses/damage, and then go about dealing with the offenders. Think of a captain of a ship/sub ordering hatches close/sealed sacrificing some of the crew to save the ship and the rest of the crew. Yeah, cold, heartless, but real.

    So now your focus becomes the root causes of why things like schools shooting happen and addressing those root causes in a manner that stops/prevents them before they are set in motion. Again, reality is, you won't get 'em all, and there will have to be some kind of reaction plan(s).

    I get that the notion of running into a school and saving the day is quite appealing/comforting. Reality is, unless you eliminate the shooter(s) before LE arrives and are sitting unarmed and quietly outside, there is a 99% chance you will be viewed as just another (The?) shooter and dealt with as such.

    For the record, my kids are no longer in school. I'm not trying to talk you into, or out of, anything. If I were to be placed in circumstances that required I act to protect their lives, I would do so with all I am, with my only objective being to win at any cost. Everything I said above would be discarded in the blink of an eye.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Prior to jumping out of your car with gun in hand:
    In 'active shooter' scenario, anyone with a drawn gun that is not easily recognizable as an LEO will be a target of the responding LEOs. You will be responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun, especially if it hits an innocent.
     
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    SAWMAN

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    That is why you (crime fighters,"operators",tat'ed trainers,tell the cops you are carring a weapon,EVEN BEFORE THEY ASK) kinda guys need concealed carry badge. The big ones that you can wear around your neck on camo'ed 550 cord . . + . . the windbreaker that sez " CONCEALED WEAPON PERMIT HOLDER" on the back with the badge on the front.
    That way you can holler "stand back everybody,i'll take care of this",right before you go rushing in with your pistol in one hand and your reload in the other.
    Make sure to remember to put on your plate carrier . . . and not backwards either.
    Go get 'em tiger. --- SAWMAN
     

    Ross7

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    That is why you (crime fighters,"operators",tat'ed trainers,tell the cops you are carring a weapon,EVEN BEFORE THEY ASK) kinda guys need concealed carry badge. The big ones that you can wear around your neck on camo'ed 550 cord . . + . . the windbreaker that sez " CONCEALED WEAPON PERMIT HOLDER" on the back with the badge on the front.

    Or even a simple colorful sash might do.;)

    33jl6l5.jpg
     

    FrommerStop

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    In any public venue where you are forced to use your weapon, after shooting get it out of sight when not actually shooting whether it is a 7-11 or a public school. You can use some manner of keeping it out of sight, but still ready for use.
    The most obvious reason not to be wearing a CCW badge is that bad guy could use it as a target indicator.
     

    IronBeard

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    That is why you (crime fighters,"operators",tat'ed trainers,tell the cops you are carring a weapon,EVEN BEFORE THEY ASK) kinda guys need concealed carry badge. The big ones that you can wear around your neck on camo'ed 550 cord . . + . . the windbreaker that sez " CONCEALED WEAPON PERMIT HOLDER" on the back with the badge on the front.
    That way you can holler "stand back everybody,i'll take care of this",right before you go rushing in with your pistol in one hand and your reload in the other.
    Make sure to remember to put on your plate carrier . . . and not backwards either.
    Go get 'em tiger. --- SAWMAN

    Dang man! I'm gonna search Amazon for some of that there cool stuff! Shoot, I'm even gonna blouse my pants. Maybe put me some strobe lights behind the grill, too. Anyone know what color designates a CCW holder?:cool:
     

    FLT

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    I don’t think they can be stopped, killing children produces the desired result. Gun control driven liberals will do what ever it takes to achieve their goal.
     

    Big Shrek

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    I don’t think they can be stopped, killing children produces the desired result. Gun control driven liberals will do what ever it takes to achieve their goal.

    Sad thing, good guys with guns have been the ONLY thing to put a stop to mass shooters.
    Altho the good Civilians are far better at it than the LEO's so far, probably because we don't bother to yell STOP, we just plug 'em! ;)
     

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    IronBeard

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    Sad thing, good guys with guns have been the ONLY thing to put a stop to mass shooters.
    Altho the good Civilians are far better at it than the LEO's so far, probably because we don't bother to yell STOP, we just plug 'em! ;)

    The true first responder is the victim. How you prepare and respond determines your potential to become/remain a victim. Caveat: I do not advocate "white knighting," but each must make his own choice, and I'm all for the freedom to do so.
     

    FrommerStop

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    Some of the latest have been by just plain tackling the goblins. A HS coach did that oregon recently.
     

    IronBeard

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    Some of the latest have been by just plain tackling the goblins. A HS coach did that oregon recently.

    If it's the only option, do it quickly while they still believe you are terrified to the point you won't act. Surpriiiise.
     

    Big Shrek

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    The latest Colorado shooting had limited effectiveness in tackling...
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/07/us/colorado-school-shooting.html

    The downside is that tackling may get you killed in the act...
    and tackling leaves the shooter alive unless you throat-punch 'em...

    Best thing is armed teachers that can plug the shooter repeatedly,
    and keep shooting until the shooter is no longer a threat (full of bullets & down).
     

    IronBeard

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    The latest Colorado shooting had limited effectiveness in tackling...
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/07/us/colorado-school-shooting.html

    The downside is that tackling may get you killed in the act...
    and tackling leaves the shooter alive unless you throat-punch 'em...

    Best thing is armed teachers that can plug the shooter repeatedly,
    and keep shooting until the shooter is no longer a threat (full of bullets & down).

    Tackling would not be my personal first choice, even if unarmed, but some are gonna hero. I'd be more about the element of surprise geared toward weapon control and disabling, but I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything. That's a personal choice to be made at the given moment.
     

    wildrider666

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    Over here in Bay County the School Guardian Program is up, running and actively in Our Schools. No Lists of Schools or Staff/Teachers participating, as it should be.

    As noted in the CBS vid our Schools Superintendent who was interviewed: was held hostage (entire Board) and he was shot at during a School Board Meeting. He puts the right view on it. A set of Parent who lost a child at Parkland bought into the anti gun: "Police Only with guns on school grounds" which got their kid and others killed. Oh, they want more gun control too.

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/florida-teachers-can-now-carry-in-the-classroom/
     
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    Big Shrek

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    Over here in Bay County the School Guardian Program is up, running and actively in Our Schools. No Lists of Schools or Staff/Teachers participating, as it should be.

    As noted in the CBS vid our Schools Superintendent who was interviewed: was held hostage (entire Board) and he was shot at during a School Board Meeting. He puts the right view on it. A set of Parent who lost a child at Parkland bought into the anti gun: "Police Only with guns on school grounds" which got their kid and others killed. Oh, they want more gun controll too.

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/florida-teachers-can-now-carry-in-the-classroom/

    Ask those Parkland idiots why they are so supportive of police, when they so very obviously FAILED their kids.
    broward.jpg
     

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    wildrider666

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    So true. Broward Scool District in collusion with LE: concealed crime from the justice system creating a hellish lawless environment for students BEFORE the Shooting and contributed to the shooter and his problems festering and unaddressed. The murderer brought this all into view! The School District and Sheriff's Office may well recreate it again when left to their own decision making.
     

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