Another School shooting....this one in FL

MAXman · Feb 21, 2018

Droshki said:
How would you prevent anyone from entering the grounds at any point besides the ECP? Fencing? How high? Would it have barbed wire or razor ribbon?

What would prevent your armed guard from being sniped at the beginning of an attack?

What prevents the gate guard at Elgin from being sniped?

Seriously speaking, I was in first grade in Europe when operation desert storm kicked off, at a DOD school. The school was surrounded by a 10 foot brick wall, and at the time the two entrances were a big gate for vehicles and a small gate for foot traffic. I took the bus so I can only remember the big gate, a large painted steel deal on a motorized tract that was only opened when the busses came/left. On the outside of the gate there was an armed uniformed guard, and either up or across the street two plainsclothes officers in vests with rifles and windows that were a couple inches thick(they'd roll them down when they smoked). All were provided by the host nations federal police. They also provided a guy for each bus, with one plains clothed marine per bus as well. Our teachers also made time to tell us to watch out for unattended bags/boxes/packages, and that if we saw one to immidiatly notify an adult. Of course, that was a foreign country, while the United States was at war, and all the students were defendants of department of defense personal.
I'm not saying that's what we need in every school in America. I'm not saying we could afford anything like that. Im just saying I've seen a school take security seriously before, and that's what it looked like.

fl57caveman · Feb 21, 2018

in 1972, our high school had 6' chainlink with barbed wire, around the student car parking lots..jr high school too

all entrances were closed @ 0815 until lunch, one entry, going right by principals office...
you could get out the back..thru a marsh, full of snakes..

our security officer was a 7th degree black belt in karate, don't know if he carried or not, no one wanted to find out..
older softspoken man, you just knew he could pop your throat out...

and this rich high school let a 19yr old punk with a gun in, and did not have a radio to reach the cop?

they are complicit ...sorry pukes. own the blame, don't look for others to put it on....
they took God out of school, no prayer, no bible verses, no morals, you are what you feel like today...

this is what you get.

Droshki · Feb 21, 2018

MAXman said:
What prevents the gate guard at Elgin from being sniped?

What would be the point? So someone could attack the base? Could happen I suppose. But I wouldn't recommend it.

Plus there's a lot more than one of them, they're all wearing body armor and lots of SPs are driving around, on and off base, and a whole squadron of them on the base, and they all have full automatic weapons, sidearms, combat arms training, and an armory, and popup barriers, and, well, you know, this isnt really much the same as an elementary school?

So its not the same as the image that was posted, a gal with a rifle slung over her shoulder while shes holding her handbag with her gun hand, watching after 25 children. Somebody could pop over the wall and hit her three times before she even got her handbag out of her hand.

But Im more intrigued by this vision of every school in America having a 10 foot tall cyclone fence topped with razor ribbon. Im not sure its where we want to be as a nation.

fl57caveman · Feb 21, 2018

Droshki said:
What would be the point? So someone could attack the base? Could happen I suppose. But I wouldn't recommend it.

Plus there's a lot more than one of them, they're all wearing body armor and lots of SPs are driving around, on and off base, and a whole squadron of them on the base, and they all have full automatic weapons, sidearms, combat arms training, and an armory, and popup barriers, and, well, you know, this isnt really much the same as an elementary school?

So its not the same as the image that was posted, a gal with a rifle slung over her shoulder while shes holding her handbag with her gun hand, watching after 25 children. Somebody could pop over the wall and hit her three times before she even got her handbag out of her hand.

But Im more intrigued by this vision of every school in America having a 10 foot tall cyclone fence topped with razor ribbon. Im not sure its where we want to be as a nation.

all righty then..

is this ready enough picture sir?

latch · Feb 21, 2018

MAXman · Feb 21, 2018

Droshki said:
What would be the point? So someone could attack the base? Could happen I suppose. But I wouldn't recommend it.

Plus there's a lot more than one of them, they're all wearing body armor and lots of SPs are driving around, on and off base, and a whole squadron of them on the base, and they all have full automatic weapons, sidearms, combat arms training, and an armory, and popup barriers, and, well, you know, this isnt really much the same as an elementary school?

So its not the same as the image that was posted, a gal with a rifle slung over her shoulder while shes holding her handbag with her gun hand, watching after 25 children. Somebody could pop over the wall and hit her three times before she even got her handbag out of her hand.

But Im more intrigued by this vision of every school in America having a 10 foot tall cyclone fence topped with razor ribbon. Im not sure its where we want to be as a nation.

Yeah, a layered and organized defense is a super hard target. No one with half a brain would expect any kind of success.

wildrider666 · Feb 21, 2018

Schools are only as hardened as the glass in the windows. Same with your house and the gun shop that closes, leaving the counters and racks full. There are alarms and physical deterrents but only human intervention has the potential to stop a determined person unless he decided he's done and/or pops himself.

Snake-Eyes · Feb 21, 2018

Droshki said:
...But Im more intrigued by this vision of every school in America having a 10 foot tall cyclone fence topped with razor ribbon. Im not sure its where we want to be as a nation.

I'd rather be "there" with healthy kids, than the other extreme of a neutered and disarmed society, living in fear of not only an evil civilian, but also an evil government.

One of the points was that schools Already Exist with way more security, and those kids did/are-doing ok. Why? Because it was explained to them, and they moved on with life.

Do you lock your doors at night? Windows? Have a security system? Dog? Gun? All of those can be defeated too, but it's way better than putting your hopes in gun-control to stop evil and criminals. That's like saying we're going to defeat our enemy by denying them a single type of weapon. Uhm, what? Anybody with half a brain will know that the enemy will just use a different weapon. Denying a weapon does nothing to change the underlying problem of their ideology, beliefs, determination, and resourcefulness.

So, while the PSYOP folks and diplomats try it their way, I'll setup a perimeter and fortify the defenses, thanks.

Jeb21 · Feb 21, 2018

The campus could be protected by a standard 6 foot fence. You would have cameras mounted on the fence and a single guard monitoring the cameras. One you get onto the campus you can only gain entry to a building if you first go to the office - where another armed guard who guards the only entry - If you have a right to be on campus you would be allowed into the building. There would be a third and fourth armed guard on patrol of campus. All guards would be reachable on their radio and each classroom would have the ability to summon help via that same system.

One last detail, the school doors could be opened from inside but not from the outside unless you had a pass card or key. So while there would only be one entry accessible to outsiders there would be multiple exits in case of a fire or other emergency.

Jeb21 · Feb 21, 2018

Increasing the age from 18 to 21 on all adult activities such as voting and such is interesting as a general proposition. With respect to mass shooters, how many mass shooters have been younger than 18? The Columbine kids, the Parkland shooter. Anyone else? I am asking, not challenging. I believe the overwhelming number of mass shooters were over the age of 21 but I am not sure.

MAXman · Feb 21, 2018

Jeb21 said:
Increasing the age from 18 to 21 on all adult activities such as voting and such is interesting as a general proposition. With respect to mass shooters, how many mass shooters have been younger than 18? The Columbine kids, the Parkland shooter. Anyone else? I am asking, not challenging. I believe the overwhelming number of mass shooters were over the age of 21 but I am not sure.

There's more too it than that. People who study this stuff and explain it better than me say that a brains logic/judgement part doesnt fully mature until around age 25. I guess the idea is that someone isn't a fully matured adult until in their mid-20's. I've heard this as a arguement for everything from excusing student debt to expunging criminal records, including the case of the wanna-be isis member whos(correct me if I'm wrong) now on house arrest.
And now recently to buy any firearm, since Valentine's Day. And also more than a couple times today, on voting, in direct reference to dissatisfaction with students calling for gun control.

I personally don't see it happening.

Droshki · Feb 22, 2018

What's being ignored here is that this school already had an armed guard. He was referred to in the various press reports as a "resource officer". Generally, in this context, this would refer to a sheriff's deputy. Thus it would be reasonable to conclude that he possessed above average SA and TTP training. Yet this had zero effect on the outcome, beginning with the shooter's target selection, and including casualty count, and failure to interrupt the attack while in progress.

Snake-Eyes · Feb 22, 2018

Droshki said:
What's being ignored here is that this school already had an armed guard. He was referred to in the various press reports as a "resource officer". Generally, in this context, this would refer to a sheriff's deputy. Thus it would be reasonable to conclude that he possessed above average SA and TTP training. Yet this had zero effect on the outcome, beginning with the shooter's target selection, and including casualty count, and failure to interrupt the attack while in progress.

I haven't seen the specifics of who that SRO is or where he was or why he was ineffective. However, it shouldn't be used to extrapolate that since this one guy didn't stop the shooter, then somehow security won't work ever.

SAWMAN · Feb 22, 2018

Wondering also - - -> The report stated that the schools "resource officer" was waaaaaay on the other side of the school.
Wondering now if the POS shooter knew this,and if so,HOW !!
Now . . . . asking any LEO's on this forum: 1. Which dept. officers become a SRO ?? City,county,state,other ?? 2. Do they come from the "normal" rank and file LEO's ?? 3. Do they have to meet certain "other" quals,above or below other officers on the same force ?? Do they get paid extra ?? Is there any mandentory special training before starting the job ?? And a bunch of other questions that could possibly compromise their effectiveness . . so will not ask on this forum. HOWEVER . . . parents or school board members should be able to ask and get the answers to. --- SAWMAN

Viking1204 · Feb 22, 2018

I would think the size of the school would dictate how many officers were needed for a particular school. That being said I am all for asking for teachers to assist with security in the school. Don't force them to but ask all the teachers who would like to be trained and armed so they could assist the school with security.

Droshki · Feb 22, 2018

Liability insurance would be an issue. Especially after the first time a teacher accidently caps a kid.

Jeb21 · Feb 22, 2018

I think one security guard is probably never going to be enough. After all they are responsible for security within the school as well as security against outside threats. Also we don't want to give an attacker even odds, so a 2:1 or better ratio against a school shooter would be my goal.

Of course funding for this would be extremely expensive, but probably less expensive than building a wall on the Mexican border.

I have very mixed feelings about arming teachers. I am certainly against forcing teachers to be armed. One concern is the teacher losing control of the weapon and it being stolen by a student. However, if a teacher wants to be armed and passes a significant training course, then I would be good with that.

Jeb21 · Feb 22, 2018

Droshki said:
What's being ignored here is that this school already had an armed guard. He was referred to in the various press reports as a "resource officer". Generally, in this context, this would refer to a sheriff's deputy. Thus it would be reasonable to conclude that he possessed above average SA and TTP training. Yet this had zero effect on the outcome, beginning with the shooter's target selection, and including casualty count, and failure to interrupt the attack while in progress.

Yea, the new report stated that he was on the other side of campus. Given that the entire attack lasted about 3 minutes, it makes sense that the officer could not get there in time. That is why I think there should be additional security measures taken beyond a guard or guards. Limited access to the buildings and a reasonable barrier on the perimeter of the school. I not in favor of razor wire - just a chain link fence and monitored security cameras.

Droshki · Feb 22, 2018

To be able to get ANY liability insurance, you're going to have to demonstrate standardized training. In order to have to have standardized training, you're going to have to have standardized weapons. In order to have standardized weapons, you're going to have to issue the weapons. In order to issue the weapons, you're going to have to have a procurement contract. In order to have a procurement contract for weapons, you'll need funding.

And then within a few short years, Erik Prince (if hes not in jail yet by then) and his sister Betsy Devoss, will have a "Blackwater" type school protection contract in place nationwide.

Then things will really start getting expensive.

FLT · Feb 22, 2018

Those are all good points. What do you purpose we as a nation do to solve this problem in a cost effective way?

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Another School shooting....this one in FL

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