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Man who sold ammo to Las Vegas shooter charged

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  • Droshki

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    Man who sold ammo to Las Vegas shooter charged

    An Arizona man who sold ammunition to the gunman in the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history was charged Friday with manufacturing armor-piercing bullets, according to court documents obtained by The Associated Press.

    Unfired armor-piercing bullets found inside the Las Vegas hotel room where the attack was launched on Oct. 1 contained the fingerprints of ammunition dealer Douglas Haig of Arizona, according to the complaint filed in federal court in Phoenix. It says Haig didn't have a license to manufacture armor-piercing ammunition.


    I believe we had a thread not too long ago, where someone was looking for someone on here to load them up some AP rounds. This should disabuse anyone else of the idea, I hope.
     

    Red

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    Wow, thanks for sharing. Scary, the guy who sold him the ammo probably had no ill intentions but the law is the law.
     

    Telum Pisces

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    Hmmm, did he manufacture bullets or hand load ammo? This article is so full of garbage it's nuts.

    I"d be interested in knowing what law was broken? Is it illegal to load incendiary or steel core ammo? Or is illegal to sell it in NV? I'm wondering what law was broken here? I thought you could load up all the tracer or steel core rounds you want? Was it the sell of them that broke the law? Just trying to find out!

    And the term " armor-piercing bullets" is basically any rifle round for the most part depending on the "armor." But I didn't know tracer ammo was "armor piercing."
     
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    RidgeRunner

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    This is Florida, I guess Nevada has similar

    (2)(a) Any person who manufactures, sells, offers for sale, or delivers any armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet, or dragon’s breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (b) Any person who possesses an armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet with knowledge of its armor-piercing or exploding capabilities loaded in a handgun, or who possesses a dragon’s breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell with knowledge of its capabilities loaded in a firearm, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (c) Any person who possesses with intent to use an armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet or dragon’s breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell to assist in the commission of a criminal act is guilty of a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (3) This section does not apply to:

    (a) The possession of any item described in subsection (1) by any law enforcement officer, when possessed in connection with the performance of his or her duty as a law enforcement officer, or law enforcement agency.
    (b) The manufacture of items described in subsection (1) exclusively for sale or delivery to law enforcement agencies.
    (c) The sale or delivery of items described in subsection (1) to law enforcement agencies.
     

    Droshki

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    A criminal complaint says two unfired .308-caliber rounds found in gunman Stephen Paddock's room had Douglas Haig's fingerprints on them and tool marks from Haig's workshop. The bullets in the cartridges were classified as armor-piercing, the complaint says.

    On October 19, the FBI searched Haig's home in Mesa, Arizona, and seized ammunition it says classifies as armor-piercing, the compaint alleges. Haig did not have a license to manufacture armor-piercing ammunition, documents say.
     

    MAXman

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    And the term " armor-piercing bullets" is basically any rifle round for the most part depending on the "armor." But I didn't know tracer ammo was "armor piercing."

    Stop saying that, you'll give someone an idea and we will be fighting too keep fmj next.
     

    MarkS

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    Are .30-06 black tips legal?

    I’m not a lawyer first off and my opinion is likely wrong. That said I think the statue 790.31 refers to ammo capable of being fired from a handgun.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    wildrider666

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    MrFish

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    iIrc, Black-Tips (.30'06) & Green-Tips (5.56mm) are exempt

    Looks like it is illegal to pull the bullets and "remanufacture" them into .308 and then sell. Looks like you can change them to .308 AP for personal use (not 100% on this), but not sell them.
     

    Droshki

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    § 478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.

    No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:

    a. The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof;

    b. The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or

    c. The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of § 478.149.
     

    Snake-Eyes

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    This is Florida, I guess Nevada has similar

    (2)(a) Any person who manufactures, sells, offers for sale, or delivers any armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet, or dragon’s breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (b) Any person who possesses an armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet with knowledge of its armor-piercing or exploding capabilities loaded in a handgun, or who possesses a dragon’s breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell with knowledge of its capabilities loaded in a firearm, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084...

    So, if you order some Dragon's Breath from war-wolf ordnance, the FedEx/UPS/USPS delivery driver becomes a felon?

    Honestly, didn't know about the Florida "dragon's breath" ban. I figured Ammo bans were for shitholes like Kommiefornia and New York.
     

    donr101395

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    So, if you order some Dragon's Breath from war-wolf ordnance, the FedEx/UPS/USPS delivery driver becomes a felon?

    Honestly, didn't know about the Florida "dragon's breath" ban. I figured Ammo bans were for shitholes like Kommiefornia and New York.


    It doesn't work that way. There has to be criminal intent and the UPS/Fedex driver has none. It's no different than Fedex delivering weed that doesn't get snagged. They aren't liable for delivering packages containing contraband unless they know the package contains contraband.
     

    SCTaylor

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    It says Haig didn't have a license to manufacture armor-piercing ammunition

    If you are going to sell ammo, you've gotta have an FFL with the right designation. Sounds like he didn't have the correct license.
     

    wildrider666

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    Even though the cartridges were advertised as AP, AP with incendiary: the BATFE needs to prove the cartridges actually violate the Law. We all know some products are over hyped. We need to wait and see what happens in Court.
     

    FrommerStop

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    The Federal regulations against AP pistol ammo are complicated and have added decisions by the ATF. Steel and tungsten inserts as done in common 5.56 NATO loadings are still ok for now even though there are many pistols in 5.56x45. Rifle ammunition that is used commonly in pistols is subject to the AP rulings. Last I heard AP used in 30-06 is ok. It seems that AP ammo for pistols made prior to the law is somewhat ok, but I am not sure about that. If you make the pistol AP projectile yourself and never sell and never cross state lines with it perhaps a lawyer could get you off.
    I have seen old german 9mm AP ammo of WWII sold at gunshows with the claim it was ok. There used to be a lot of soft steel core 7.62x39 ammo sold in the USA. Once pistols were made in that caliber no more steel core 7.62x39 could be imported even though it was not really AP ammo. But the law said it was.

    Apparently the .308 API ammo that was sold in the Nevada case is considered illegal. There is a claim that its purpose was to shoot at the nearby Airport fuel storage tanks. The I stands for incendiary.
     

    Jester896

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    If you are going to sell ammo, you've gotta have an FFL with the right designation. Sounds like he didn't have the correct license.

    I think that is correct,
    if I understand correctly...an 006 allows you to produce ammo for sale to others. it does not allow you to produce AP and Incendiary. You would need the additional 007 to make those but your sales are limited to LEO and Military only under ITAR.

    If he has an 007 then he is in violation.

    not certain...but you can produce either for your own consumption without violating Federal Law
     
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