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Question on 80% AR15 lowers

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  • Red

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    Hi guys,
    Couple of questions for guys that know. I am thinking of ordering an 80% AR15 lower for a project since it has some engravings that would make it a good clone candidate.

    Question: Do 80% lowers get shipped to your home since they are not complete? Or are they an FFL Item?

    Question: Who on here can recommend a smith with the CAD and CNC machine to finish it up. Want a clean milspec look then re-finished of course.

    Thanks in advance.
     

    ksenter

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    Im not 100% but dont think you can legally contract your work out on an 80% lower.

    Someone smarter than I will hopefully chime in and clear the air.
     

    Red

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    Hmm, maybe if the gun smith with FFL orders it and finishes it then sells it to me as a complete firearm. However maybe its one of those if you get an 80% lower and finishes it, you can never sell it. I am not sure. Maybe I can just mill it out myself even though it would look ugly lol.

    Only reason I am considering purchasing an 80% lower is cause it has certain marking engraved on it that makes it look like a more authentic clone I am trying to build.

    If I can find one that is finished and has the engravings I would just order it like a normal FFL item.
     

    Fear21

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    The 80% receivers can go right to your door, no FFL required. After milling there will be bare aluminum though, unless you send it out to have it anodized or otherwise apply a finish yourself. What markings are you looking to get?
     

    Red

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    Building a T91 Tawainese military rifle clone. Got the upper, correct muzzle device and correct fixed rear sight. Pistol grip and buttstock kit is going to be hard to find in stock anywhere online. Taiwan isn’t sanctioned though so eventually they should get some more in.
    Interesting design. Purpose built piston AR type, with the Asian flavor. Using the Wolf A1 upper as a good starting point. Whenever there are buttstock kits available again they look like old CAR types w/ 3position tube and knurled castle nut. The Taiwan engraving is what git it the authentic look. But either way at a glance just dropping the Wolf A1 upper on a lower with a CAR style stock and that’s basically it.
    Going full bore with the engravings on the 80% is purely aesthetics

    Pic for reference
     

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    Daezee

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    If a FFL finishes it, that FFL would have to put their name, city, state, model and serial number on it. If you, as an individual, finishes it, in Florida there is no requirement for your info to be on it. You can get 80% lowers that are already type III anodized. There are several engravers that can engrave lowers. There are several suppliers of 80% lowers, many of which can sell you an 80% with stuff already engraved on it. See the pic you posted...it's an 80% with Type 91 info engraved on it, just not anodized.

    I was searching for someone to Mattel engrave an 80% for me when I found on Gunbroker a California guy selling such a thing done by him. The outside is already anodized. I'll use aluminum black on the inside where I mill it out. A friend is also getting a Mattel 80% from him...he's ahead of me in getting M16A1 parts for his "Mattel" build.

    Do a search for AR lower engraving...several offer more engraving than just a name, city, state and will have some libraries of engravings they've done on their web sites and/or can engrave from a picture you send them.

    I've ordered a jig and tool set from 5D Tactical and will be finishing my 80%. My son in law is loaning me his DeWalt router and use of his workshop. Another friend gave me a vise to hold the lower while being milled. A friend also gave me a plain 80% lower I can practice on if I want before I do my more expensive "Mattel" lower. I've never done one before, but feel I can do it. If I can do it, then anybody can. I'll post pics of the finishing of the 80% when I do it. There is no law that says you can't make one yourself and then sell it if you get tired of it, but I believe ATF suggests that if ever sold you put a serial number on it.
     

    SAWMAN

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    Haven't researched it thoroughly but here is the "gossip " on the street. ---> Some engravers are reluctant to put a logo on things if it is/could be a patented logo.
    Generic names and numbers are ok. It is just the patented logo that worries them. In the least,I would show a pic to the engraver and see if he has a problem with it.
    There are tons of pics/logos that are not a patent item. --- SAWMAN
     

    Red

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    Thanks all. I may pick up the Taiwan engraved lower and just take my time and finish it myself. The vendor I guess mill one as they are ordered as there is an option to pick my own SN. Pretty cool.
    Been watching a ton of YouTube videos on 80% finishes, and seems like something I’d be capable of if I take my time. A good jig and steady hand seem to be the key.

    All in all it’s not a must have as the t91 upper will drop onto any A1/A2 receiver. I think it’s just a neat project to have a Taiwanese military rifle clone.

    Besides the engraved lower I would need a real T91 FSB that has a bayo lug and a little rail. Then it would be perfect.

    I’ll make sure I check the chamber really good and if it gives me trouble I’ll polish it up nice. If that don’t work then I’ll just send it back
     

    3rdown110yds2go

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    Now I have to ask....

    1) 5D tactical charges $200.00 + for the jig....Plus you will be replacing certain bits and parts along the way....how many lowers can you do before the bits get dull ?

    2) 5D charges $49.99 starting price for the low end 80% lowers....I think some of them are $90.00 plus...Is there that much/many benefits to doing your own lowers considering the cost ???

    3) Once you finish one are you allowed to sell it.....in order to place a serial number on it wouldn't you have to be an FFL ?

    4) And you do know if your wife finds out you spent all that money She is going to want a new Car for Valentines Day !!!
     

    Daezee

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    Now I have to ask....

    1) 5D tactical charges $200.00 + for the jig....Plus you will be replacing certain bits and parts along the way....how many lowers can you do before the bits get dull ?

    2) 5D charges $49.99 starting price for the low end 80% lowers....I think some of them are $90.00 plus...Is there that much/many benefits to doing your own lowers considering the cost ???

    3) Once you finish one are you allowed to sell it.....in order to place a serial number on it wouldn't you have to be an FFL ?

    4) And you do know if your wife finds out you spent all that money She is going to want a new Car for Valentines Day !!!

    1 - From what users have posted, they've not worn out any mill or drill bits so far and have done 5-8 lowers. Did read of one or two guys breaking the milling bit ($20 replacement cost) (I suspect it was touching the receiver and had the rpm set too high when the user turned the router on). I intend to make each of my milling cuts half the normal depth, thus taking twice as long to mill the receiver in order to have smoother cuts, less strain on the router and mill bit, and less tendency for any jerky router movement.

    2 - From strictly a $ stand point, you are better off buying an already done lower through a FFL, such as when they are on sale instead of making your own. From the stand point of having something unique (in my case a "Mattel" marked, "M16A1" marked lower) and of having done it yourself, the $ doesn't matter within reason. My Mattel 80% lower was $110 plus $7.15 shipping. When I looked at what an anodized 80% cost + the cost of all the engraving that mine comes with, I was better off than having a lower engraved separately. My son in law is supplying his workshop and router, a friend gave me a vise to hold the fixture, a friend gave me a 80%, not anodized lower to practice on before cutting the Mattel lower, and another friend has offered to pay some of the cost of the jig and tool set so he can use it.

    3 - From everything I've read, do not make one if your intent is to sell it...maybe sell it later on when you're "tired" of it. No, you do not have to be a FFL to serial number it. In my case, I believe mine will come with a 4 million range number to simulate a Vietnam era "Mattel M16A1".

    4 - The reason for a 2nd email address.

    5 - 5D Tactical offers a military/law enforcement 10% discount. See their FAQ on how to get a discount code...they quickly sent me a code to use when ordering. Saved $25.xx.

    6 - I am looking forward to this project. Have started looking on the forums and Internet for M16A1 type parts needed for my build.

    7 - Will start a thread under Gunsmithing when my 80% lower arrives and I start the milling and finding parts.
     
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    3rdown110yds2go

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    1 - From what users have posted, they've not worn out any mill or drill bits so far and have done 5-8 lowers. Did read of one or two guys breaking the milling bit ($20 replacement cost) (I suspect it was touching the receiver and had the rpm set too high when the user turned the router on). I intend to make each of my milling cuts half the normal depth, thus taking twice as long to mill the receiver in order to have smoother cuts, less strain on the router and mill bit, and less tendency for any jerky router movement.

    2 - From strictly a $ stand point, you are better off buying an already done lower through a FFL, such as when they are on sale instead of making your own. From the stand point of having something unique (in my case a "Mattel" marked, "M16A1" marked lower) and of having done it yourself, the $ doesn't matter within reason. My Mattel 80% lower was $110 plus $7.15 shipping. When I looked at what an anodized 80% cost + the cost of all the engraving that mine comes with, I was better off than having a lower engraved separately. My son in law is supplying his workshop and router, a friend gave me a vise to hold the fixture, a friend gave me a 80%, not anodized lower to practice on before cutting the Mattel lower, and another friend has offered to pay some of the cost of the jig and tool set so he can use it.

    3 - From everything I've read, do not make one if your intent is to sell it...maybe sell it later on when you're "tired" of it. No, you do not have to be a FFL to serial number it. In my case, I believe mine will come with a 4 million range number to simulate a Vietnam era "Mattel M16A1".

    4 - The reason for a 2nd email address.

    5 - 5D Tactical offers a military/law enforcement 10% discount. See their FAQ on how to get a discount code...they quickly sent me a code to use when ordering. Saved $25.xx.

    6 - I am looking forward to this project. Have started looking on the forums and Internet for M16A1 type parts needed for my build.

    7 - Will start a thread under Gunsmithing when my 80% lower arrives and I start the milling and finding parts.

    Now I have a better perspective on the whole thing....I really like the jig you ordered that is one unique piece of equipment....I hope everything works out as planned.....And I hope that jig kit came with a bottle of Single Malt Scotch !!!
     

    Plinker

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    Daezee

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    Looks similar in concept to what a friend gave me (I think it was too big or too tall for his drill press). It looks like it might be bigger than the one you are looking at. My intention is to clamp it to a work bench and use it to hold the jig while I drill and mill. Here's a 80% the same friend gave me to play with. I believe current 80%'s do not come with the selector hole already drilled...he's had that 80% for a while. Got notice that my Mattel 80% and my 5D Tactical jig and tool set were shipped yesterday via USPS.

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    Burnt Drag

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    Just a word or so as I have done this. If you don't have a BIG drill press and the means to secure that milling vise, you're going to get a lot of chatter. Machine lube on the work will help.

    There seems to be some confusion here on "selling" an 80% weapon. The ATF says that these guns are not to be sold or traded. You can look this stuff up, there is a list of rules ATF publishes. I also have heard there is no requirement to mark the rifle, or serialize it. I've heard that it should be... so I engraved my initials and a part of my FL DL# on to the lower...in case it was stolen.
     

    FrommerStop

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    I am still not clear on if someone that is not licensed or in the business can decide later on to sell or give away a finished 80% receiver.
    Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/atf-answers-questions-on-80-receiver-blanks/#ixzz5WfCmBXkQ

    12. Can anyone make firearms and sell them?
    With certain exceptions, and subject to any state law that might apply, as long as an individual is not prohibited from possessing a firearm, he or she can make a firearm for personal use. If an individual wants to manufacture and sell firearms, he or she is required to obtain a license, and mark each firearm manufactured in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92. [18 U.S.C. 923(i), 26 U.S.C. 5822]
    Since I do not know for sure I would not do it.

    Here is more discussion and again the feds have issued no guidelines on it and so until there is a court case with all appeals gone through no one really knows.

    “If an individual is engaged in the business as a manufacturer or seller of firearms then that person must obtain a federal firearms license.”

    Now if we take the actual definition of “engaged in the business” as laid out in 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(21)(A), the term means (in relation to a manufacturer) “a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.”

    My lawyer and I came to the consensus that so long as I manufactured with the intent of personal use and not sale, we are in the clear. So can you finish an 80% lower for a buddy? NO. The intent was the sale or distribution, not personal use. Can you make one for yourself, end up not liking the way it turned out and sell it to get rid of it? Possibly…?

    The problem is, with as clear as the wording of the law is, there is no precedent in court. There is no case law supporting either position. And the ATF and DOJ will refuse to clarify, because guess what, they aren’t lawyers either. So until someone gets taken to court for the periodic and irregular sale of firearms manufactured for personal use and either wins or loses, when the question is asked, the answer from every corner is, “Maybe? https://www.80-lower.com/blogs/80-lower-blog/selling-an-80-lower-can-it-be-done-legally-of-course
     

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