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Compulsory Service???

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  • Red

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    What’s y’alls thought on compulsory or conscription service for America?

    Would it hurt our current military readiness?

    What if faced with a no shit modern enemy? Would a draft make the difference?

    Do we have the gear in sufficient quantities to defeat a modern standing army with ours being a small all volunteer force?

    Is it fair that the often overworked, much exploited, working class are usually the ones that do all the fighting?

    Should we give precedent to politicians that have fought for this country? I mean fought not just served, there is a difference. Maybe then we would not have endless wars started by people who have not experienced the consequences of violent actions.

    Just some thoughts that may or may not start a decent discussion. There will always be those that wear the American flag for a t shirt, lift their trucks 6 inches and claim “U.S. numba 1” but never served and have no intelligible points to stand on. Then there are those on the other side that feel no matter what the military industrial complex is evil and the pen is always mightier than the sword. Failing to realize the pen is only powerful when men stand ready to do violence on behalf of that pen.

    Bored long weekend...lol. Cheers
     

    Welldoya

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    I don't know, seems like it would be a mess if some of these UCLA-Berkley types were forced into the military.
    I did not serve. Looking back, I wished I would have but my Dad was career USAF and I had never lived anywhere more than 3 years, usually 2.
    I was just tired of moving so I wanted to put some roots down after college.
     

    Red

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    Agreed, those Berkley types would likely not be a good fit, but you bring up another good point. Your Dad served career AF. He put in enough time for the both of ya. If you had served, then it would be a career AF Airmen followed by his son and the rest of America did not take a bite out of the shit sandwich.
    You at least know what a service related life looks like, most don't, and maybe if we throw some of these Berkley types into the ranks under some ol school leadership style, we could break the snowflake, everything offends my mindset that seems to permeate into every aspect of our new America. Maybe we can get them into some situations where it mattered more to fight to survive something real than be offended by something perceived.
     

    Welldoya

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    At the time, I hated moving and leaving my friends but looking back it was the best thing that could have happened.
    I've got friends all over the country and see about half a dozen of them every year or two.
    I'm talking kids from high school and I'm 62. Lasting friendships.
     

    MAXman

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    You know I've put a lot of thought into this and I suspect, Red, you and I have come too many of the same conclusions.
    But, FYI, I suspect you'll be shortly called a socialist for daring to propose conscripting everyone like Cuba and Sweden and Israel does.

    Another point, it'd really curb the feelings of entitlement many veterans display. I mean if every able body American put their time in it really takes away all the special, doesn't it?

    Another thing to consider, most recently it popped up during talks about DACA: how many in this country see college enrollment on par with military service. Of course, many of the veterans I know also ended up with a degree so does that make them super citizens?
     
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    FrankT

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    American service for 2 years does not have to be Military, any public service would do, pick and choose the best for the Military. So yes make it mandatory
     

    Red

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    You know I've put a lot of thought into this and I suspect, Red, you and I have come too many of the same conclusions.
    But, FYI, I suspect you'll be shortly called a socialist for daring to propose conscripting everyone like Cuba and Sweden and Israel does.

    Another point, it'd really curb the feelings of entitlement many veterans display. I mean if every able body American put their time in it really takes away all the special, doesn't it?

    Another thing to consider, most recently it popped up during talks about DACA: how many in this country see college enrollment on par with military service. Of course, many of the veterans I know also ended up with a degree so does that make them super citizens?

    Good points Maxman.

    I absolutely agree it would curb that chip on the shoulder sense of entitlement that most of this generation of veterans seem to carry. Everything needs a discount, free meals are not enough, should never have to pay for a beer again etc. If everyone took a bite of the action I suspect everyone would be less impressed and the whole guilty hero worship would disappear. We would all have a common understanding of service to nation that is on the shoulders of far too few today.

    I do not see college with being on par with the military. An officer is a service member with a college degree, should we elect him president? Hell no, I have met some dumbass officers in my day. I do feel higher education and trade are important pillars of our nations continued development though. And yes I said trade. Too many people look down on tradesmen but when that rich Dr needs that 8 speed BMW transmission rebuilt who is he going to go to? The car Dr.

    Civil service I feel can be as valuable as military service. The branches are not for everyone but there is always a way to serve even if you are not physically capable of active service. Plenty of non military ways to support our nation and her interests, just seems like no one is interested. Seems like most are interested in safe spaces, free college, liberal arts and basket weaving degrees, and wonder why they can't get a job.
     

    MAXman

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    Yeah I got free college. In fact I got paid to go. Just say'n
     

    FrankT

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    Good points Maxman.

    I absolutely agree it would curb that chip on the shoulder sense of entitlement that most of this generation of veterans seem to carry.

    I really find this statement offensive, now 1% of the population serves and they give up a lot and some give everything. I never see them with their hand out or begging for more...maybe that is just me but I always thank them for their service. I do see the welfare and some college folks always asking for something without serving at all.
     

    MAXman

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    You're not wrong frank but that doesn't nagate the fact thay many of us 1%ers act like the world owes us something.

    It's not something I like too say, and a lot of times this country can't hold up thier end of what they offer(like for example mental health resources with the va). But yeah man, I've seen guys throw around veteran status when getting kicked out of a bar after last call, get out of speeding tickets, you name it. Truth is man, anyone who's served after 1975 did so of free will, with sound mind, voluntarily. If EVERYONE did their time, then there'd be no need for stolen valor. No one would ever buy a grunt style shirt. Guys like me wouldn't have too tell draft dodgers to get bent when they say "voting is a civic duty", I'd have to come up with an actual response.

    The hint here man, is both red and I are part of that one percent. I know I've lost friends in that shithole desert, and I'm confident he has also. And yes guys like him, and me, and you, we bore the weight of this nation. I'll say for myself I often feel special, and like people owe me something. But I also know that's a trap, and once you think like that you just start cutting everyone out.
    I also know that none of this will change the way people feel about their service, or what they think this country owes them. Hence why a mandatory 2 years in the army(even before a move to navy or Air Force, only exception is a voluntary 4 year contract USMC instead),every able body American, imo would curb the idea that we are special.

    Caveat, those dudes who were drafted. They faced prison time, or a jungle/the nazis. God bless those dudes, I actually do think we owe them a lot more than anyone ever offered.
     

    IronBeard

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    I don't think you are gonna get the best out of someone that doesn't want to do what you are asking. Not to be confused with encouraging/pushing someone to give their best when you know they are capable. 1-2 out of a hundred conscripts might rise to the occasion, but you'll expend more effort trying to keep order and discipline than it's worth. Over 30 years I've seen that things can be bad enough with the all volunteer force. I don't see it getting better with conscripts. Although I now keep my uniform in my wallet, I do see the value of some kind of service, I just don't think the military is the place for compulsory service.
     

    FrankT

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    Maxman, I joined during the draft and did so voluntarily, So I think as much of those who volunteer today, I think they ARE owed more than they get and and are owed by a grateful Nation much more than they will ever get back. I don't understand feeling any other way.
     

    Red

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    Ain’t mean to be offensive Frank but unfortunately it’s true to an extent in this generations of veterans. Not all veterans.
    Yep 1% of us have served, and if you’re a lifer like me I have years....years accumulated in dangerous areas. Lost many a brother, almost bought the farm myself more than a few times. I agree some things could be better but thanks to older generations of vets I would have to say we have it pretty good in the service.
    From what I have seen when I first joined when the war started, to now, there has big a huge change in mentality within the ranks. A lot of guys unfortunately feel they can serve 3yrs, maybe deploy, maybe not. Then get out and go to the VA for a disability claim. It’s unfortunate that so many game the system since there are those that truly need help both physically and emotionally.

    I’m just talking about my experience in what I have seen. It’s not all inclusive as some guys serve foremost for their brothers and in the bigger picture because the nation is at war.

    I myself, love the military because of being able to fight for the man to my left and right. I further enjoy serving because America is my country and when she decided to go to war I felt convicted to do my part for the country that affords me the freedoms I enjoy. I also understand that this is service and my meager contributions over the years will long be forgotten except by the guys there with me. I feel I should be compensated for injuries incurred in the line of duty, but I don’t need anything else from anyone at the moment thank God. In large part due to the great benefits while in the military.
    Having to start over when retirement comes will be an adjustment though I will likely find myself in continued service to my country in some capacity
     

    MAXman

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    I hear ya frank, and I have no problem with you appreciating and wanting to support your brothers and sisters. A lot of times it seems like we are all each other have.

    Joe and ironbeard make excellent points. I've seen how much a single marine who doesn't wanna be there can tax a whole unit.
     
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    kanaka

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    Guess nobody here was serving when McNamara's 100,000 were still in the ranks along with draftees.

    What a bunck of fuk ups. Eventually smoothed out about 75-76.

    Drafts should be for emergency purposes because that's desperation. Of course, if you went to Canada to avoid it, a lefty president will pardon you anyway.
     

    Red

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    So would mandatory service be worth it if say we were at peace and the lifers could manage those that dragg ass with the only benefit being if a war was to pop off against a huge standing, well trained and equipped army, we would at least have a little bit of knowledge and numbers for the meat grinder?

    Otherwise if we waited until an emergency, we would be scrambling to train recruits that really don’t want to be there if there is a hard conventional war going on.

    It think it may be one of those catch 22 scenarios where you will get some good with bad. An all volunteer Army will get pretty chewed up in a hard war, a conscripted one as well but then you have numbers to overwhelm the enemy. Catch 22
     

    fl57caveman

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    Israel and Switzerland have much longer history of military service, and the service idea is ingrained in the people, it seems to work for them..


    with these snowflakes today, many 3rd generation from the 60"s and 70's hippy generation, I don't see it a benefit....

    they would die on their knees begging for their life if captured, not on their feet fighting...
     
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