Another Retro build in the works

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    A few weeks ago, I was helping someone with some info about a M16A1 clone build. It dawned on me that I was missing a couple M16A1 clones myself. There were changes from the very first M16A1 that came out in early 1967 up through the latest version that came out in 1974 (made up through 1982). I have an early 1967 clone, one from the 1972-73 time frame, and one from the 1974-82 time frame. I am missing one from the Dec. 1967-1970 and one from the 1971 era. All of these have subtle differences. The one I am undertaking is the one from the Dec. 1967-1970 time frame. These still had the D type stock (no trapdoor) and were the first to have the new birdcage FH. They still had no forge code uppers like the earlier M16A1 and the XM16E1. Forge codes did not appear until 1972. The 1971 M16A1 was the first year they introduced the E type stock (trapdoor model) with the fixed sling swivel. I will tackle that one some other time. Currently, I am waiting on the receivers and the charging handle from Nodak Spud. I have an original M16 lower parts kit arriving today. I have everything else in hand. I will post pics some time around May or June after the receivers come in.
     

    Ric-san

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    Tackleberry...how close to the originals are the Brownell's Retro AR's...? They seem to ha a few now...just wondering how true to the originals they are to the retro enthusiast...?
     
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    Tackleberry...how close to the originals are the Brownell's Retro AR's...? They seem to ha a few now...just wondering how true to the originals they are to the retro enthusiast...?

    The Brownells ARs are close enough for most people who are not overly concerned about 100% correctness. They are not using the correct port doors for one thing. They are using A2 port doors. Repro A1 type port doors are not available in large quantity. Repro 601/602 port doors do not exist. I look for Brownells to remedy this at some point in the future. The furniture color on the 601 model is a lighter green than the original. The CAR stock on the XM177E2 model uses a fiberlite (plastic) commercial stock, but it does have a correct mil-spec 2-position buffer tube. There is a standard castle nut instead of the old style locking ring. Again, there is a limited amount of repros available. Brownells is looking into a source for mil-spec aluminum CAR stocks. Depending on which model you are looking at, they are as close as you can get to the real thing right of the shelf. As for the XM177E2 model, Troy Industries makes one that is closer to the original, but is not 100% correct either. These are all close in price. Building a M16A1 clone with original parts will cost quite a bit these days. Certainly more than $1200-$1300. With Brownells offering some reproduction parts, it is easier to build a non-100% clone for right around $1000-$1100. One can do that or buy one already built for about $100-$200 more. Al in all, Brownells has done a great job on these repro ARs and I look for them to make them more correct as time goes on. For me, I still prefer to build my own as I get a lot of self-satisfaction for creating something and it look like it has been around for decades and works great.
     

    Daezee

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    Also, the safety selector is wrong. It has a "tic" mark on the right side designed to point to the safety marks on the right side of "modern" AR's. Depending upon the Brownells's model, the takedown pins should have a hole in the center for earlier models which the repro's don't. Probably other inaccuracies of which I am not qualified to notice such as the shine or lack thereof of the furniture. They sure are pretty looking rifles though.

    I started a thread under gunsmithing about the Mattel M16A1 I am trying to make, now that one is hard to find "correct" parts for! Tackleberry, If you have any tips or insight into my Mattel, I'd appreciate it...yes I know they did not exist.

    In hindsight, I wish that 40 years ago I'd have thought to have taken close up pics of some of the XM16E1's that were in the 2nd Medical Battalion, 2nd FSSG, 2nd Marine Division...people would have liked that stuff today. At the time, they were "just M16's" to me, and my duty was only to issue and lock them back up after use.
     
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    Also, the safety selector is wrong. It has a "tic" mark on the right side designed to point to the safety marks on the right side of "modern" AR's. Depending upon the Brownells's model, the takedown pins should have a hole in the center for earlier models which the repro's don't. Probably other inaccuracies of which I am not qualified to notice such as the shine or lack thereof of the furniture. They sure are pretty looking rifles though.

    I started a thread under gunsmithing about the Mattel M16A1 I am trying to make, now that one is hard to find "correct" parts for! Tackleberry, If you have any tips or insight into my Mattel, I'd appreciate it...yes I know they did not exist.

    In hindsight, I wish that 40 years ago I'd have thought to have taken close up pics of some of the XM16A1's that were in the 2nd Medical Battalion, 2nd FSSG, 2nd Marine Division...people would have liked that stuff today. At the time, they were "just M16's" to me, and my duty was only to issue and lock them back up after use.

    I forgot about the safety selector as they are using those with a "tic" on the right side. As far as the dimpled parts, those were used on the 601, 602, early XM16E1, early 604, and 605. I know of a guy who can dimple those parts (takedown pin, pivot pin, magazine release, and safety selector) and re-parkerize them.

    As far as the "MATTEL" M16 goes, there was no such animal. That is an old wives tale. The handgrip of the M16 rifle was made by Mattel. When the gun was first introduced in Vietnam, soldiers noticed the toy company’s logo embossed on the handgrip and complained. Later shipments arrived without the imprint, but the grips were still manufactured by Mattel. It is possible that the early 1967 M16A1 had a MATTEL pistol grip, but the majority did not. The XM16E1s and 604s were most likely the candidates that received most of the MATTEL grips. Finding an original MATTEL grip is next to impossible. The M16A1 was produced by Colt, GM Hydra-Matic, and H&R. The latter two in limited numbers. I have seen guys do a custom engraved lower to indicate a MATTEL M16, but these were just for nostalgic purposes and not to produce a MATTEL M16 clone as they never existed.
     

    Daezee

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    When I found the Colt XM16E1's, I was actually looking for a Mattel (I did not know better, but had heard it mentioned by a few Vietnam veteran Marines (1975-1977 in my unit) (maybe they were messing with me) and since I had armory access, why not look?). I also did not know about GM and H&R M16's, but found them in my search and found that interesting, as no one had mentioned those sources. I went through all 400 of the Battalion's M16's. Actually, I went through all firearms in our armory looking to see who made what. Oh, there were no Singer M1911A1's or US&S either (we also had 400 M1911A1's).

    Yes I'm joking about Mattel M16A1's; yes I'm trying to make one anyway. I know it will have a D or E buttstock and A1 pistol grip and triangular hand guards. I think I can get a nice set of original furniture for around $110.
     

    Ric-san

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    .....In hindsight, I wish that 40 years ago I'd have thought to have taken close up pics of some of the XM16E1's that were in the 2nd Medical Battalion, 2nd FSSG, 2nd Marine Division...people would have liked that stuff today. At the time, they were "just M16's" to me, and my duty was only to issue and lock them back up after use.

    Its not like we all walked around with cell phone with the ability to take pictures.....right? One place I would have loved to have taken a few pic was at the rifle range....hell as many times as I had to qualify and then a the SNCO Non-Fire, it was more than once a year the last few years before I retired in 2004. I was stationed at MCAS New River for almost 10 yrs so was quite familiar with Stone Bay and all three ranges before they built the 1,000 yd range. Was there for that, but it was not for everyone to shoot on.
     
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    When I found the Colt XM16E1's, I was actually looking for a Mattel (I did not know better, but had heard it mentioned by a few Vietnam veteran Marines (1975-1977 in my unit) (maybe they were messing with me) and since I had armory access, why not look?). I also did not know about GM and H&R M16's, but found them in my search and found that interesting, as no one had mentioned those sources. I went through all 400 of the Battalion's M16's. Actually, I went through all firearms in our armory looking to see who made what. Oh, there were no Singer M1911A1's or US&S either (we also had 400 M1911A1's).

    Yes I'm joking about Mattel M16A1's; yes I'm trying to make one anyway. I know it will have a D or E buttstock and A1 pistol grip and triangular hand guards. I think I can get a nice set of original furniture for around $110.

    Since these were used on M16s first issued in Vietnam, most likely, these grips were found on the XM16E1 and 604. Both of these had D type stocks and 3-prong FHs. They could have been on the M16A1 that was issued in early 1967 which also had a D type stock and 3-prong FH like this one.

    mZ4CYsS.jpg


    JWOmr5M.jpg


    Brownells M16A1 model is close to this with the exception of the FH and that can be changed to a 3-prong very easily. Their XM16E1 model will work as well.
     

    Daezee

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    I was somewhat of a photo buff then and developed my own B&W film/photo's in a closet in the barracks. I had 2 tours with the Marines at CLNC (I was a Navy Corpsman).

    "They" wanted a SNCO to live in the enlisted barracks to keep an eye on things. I was single and a first class so why not, and the other E6's and above readily OK'd my requests as they didn't want to live there. Own lockable room with head, TV, guns in my room on the weekends.

    The C.O. of H&S Company, knowing I liked guns made me an alternate armorer so I could issue weapons when our 2 Marine armorers were not present. I also carried my WWII S&W Navy Victory Model .38 instead of issue M1911A1 (easier to carry) (when in the field and for some personnel inspections, everyone had to carry). Got a box of .38 special M41 Ball ammo from Special Services to keep with my Victory Model in our armory in case we went to war. Had our own rifle and pistol team and got to shoot some of the Battalion's quarterly training allotment of ammo (up to the time I got stationed there, to the best of my knowledge, no one there could remember training ammo being shot by the Medical Battalion). H&S C.O. (Marine Captain) just told me, "Doc, I don't care what you do, just don't make work for me." He sure was proud of us though when we got the first shooting trophy the Battalion had ever gotten (1st place rifle in CLNC intramural competition).

    Had my M1A1 Thompson Submachine Gun with me. Given a can of 45 ball to shoot through the TSMG at the rifle range if I let a few instructor's each shoot a magazine through it. Told to report to the Provost Marshall's office to talk to local ATF agent...ATF knew I'd brought my TSMG with me since they'd OK'd me to bring it from Indiana...and they say ATF never checks up on MG owners. Agent said when Marines find out about my TSMG, someone might want to sell me stolen ammo. If so, I was call that agent. No one offered to sell me stolen ammo.

    But this thread is about retro builds, which means parts. Our armory was 1st echelon maintenance. Although we had Cpl and Lance Cpl trained armorers, being 1st echelon they were only authorized (in their words) to "tighten grip screws". Camp Lejeune had a 4th echelon armory unit, so anything needing work had to go there. The Cpl took me there to teach me in case any weapons were ready to be picked up and our Marine armorers were not available. Anyway, our Bn armorers asked me if I wanted/needed any spare parts (no thank you, I didn't have any need for "modern" parts at that time). Over the years by whatever means they and their predecessors had gotten various spares in case we really had to go to war so they could fix our firearms without delay. They were kept hidden in the armory overhead above the ceiling so inspectors could not see them. But since I was one of them, they shared the secret with me. We had M16's, M1911A1's, 50 cal MG's, and M60's. No mortars or rocket launchers...we were a medical battalion that set up hospitals, not a grunt unit.

    Ah the good old days!
     

    Daezee

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    Since these were used on M16s first issued in Vietnam, most likely, these grips were found on the XM16E1 and 604. Both of these had D type stocks and 3-prong FHs. They could have been on the M16A1 that was issued in early 1967 which also had a D type stock and 3-prong FH like this one.

    mZ4CYsS.jpg


    JWOmr5M.jpg


    Brownells M16A1 model is close to this with the exception of the FH and that can be changed to a 3-prong very easily. Their XM16E1 model will work as well.

    What makes that "mottled" look on the furniture? Was it simply age? I like that shiny look vs the modern dull look of AR furniture, especially the buttstock. Yours looks nice. Thank you for posting.
     

    kanaka

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    It is the dye that was used that is leaving the fiberglass that was mixed in to mold the stocks. Comes with wear but I accelerated it by wet sanding and polishing. There's a bunch of reflection in the pics so it really isn't showing all the mottling, it's really polished out.
    Go too far and I heard that it'll get fuzzy, ends sticking out.
    Had this type D and well used A1 grip not doing anything and the 4 position stock that was on there kept on snagging my beard so put them to use.

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    3BpQyE8l.jpg
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    What makes that "mottled" look on the furniture? Was it simply age? I like that shiny look vs the modern dull look of AR furniture, especially the buttstock. Yours looks nice. Thank you for posting.

    The mottling eventually shows through over age and use. Remember, the furniture back then was made quite a bit different as it was more like fibrous resin with a black dye mixed in. On older retro M16 builds, I love to have mottled furniture as it gives the weapon a more authentic "been there, done that" look.
     

    Daezee

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    Thank you both for the explanations. I asked because I'm going to be looking for a D or E stock and A1 grip for my "Mattel" build. I've seen the mottled look, and not knowing what caused it, was afraid it was a sign that the stock was on the verge of "falling apart", so I naturally shied away from any thought of buying such. Now I know better.

    Thanks
     
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    Thank you both for the explanations. I asked because I'm going to be looking for a D or E stock and A1 grip for my "Mattel" build. I've seen the mottled look, and not knowing what caused it, was afraid it was a sign that the stock was on the verge of "falling apart", so I naturally shied away from any thought of buying such. Now I know better.

    Thanks

    Seeing that you are wanting to do this "MATTEL" build, it may be more correct to have the D type stock as MATTEL supplied the pistol grips early on during Vietnam. This would date the build pre-1971 which would mean a D type stock. E type stocks were not used until 1971. An A1 birdcage FH would have been starting in late 1967 on the M16A1, XM16E1, and most likely the 604.
     

    Daezee

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    Thank you! D stock and A1 flash hider it is. Found a place advertising very good to excellent D's at $50 (add $5 if you want want one that has a rack number stenciled on it) (if you want the link, let me know).

    I know it may sound silly, making a "correct repro" of something that never existed, but I'm having fun and learning at the same time. I saw a combat-aged repro looking AR that Kendive bought from a forum member. I had forgotten how fun the 20" lightweight AR's were to shoot...such a soft slow recoil, and I did well with that smaller A1 front sight.
     
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